Leadership & Business Podcast

Ken WhiteLeadership & Business is an award-winning podcast series. It features the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. Each episode features subject matter experts discussing strategies, tactics and information to help you become a more effective leader, communicator and professional.

Launched in 2015, Leadership & Business is produced by William & Mary's Raymond A. Mason School of Business. Ken White, Associate Dean for MBA & Executive Programs and former award-winning broadcast journalist, hosts the podcast.

 Dan Akerson
Dan AkersonEpisode 176: May 21, 2022
Leading on a Global Scale

Dan Akerson

Episode 176: May 21, 2022

Leading on a Global Scale

To say Dan Akerson has had an exciting career is an understatement. He's held leadership positions such as CEO, Chairman, President, and Managing Director of top organizations—including MCI, General Instrument, Nextel, The Carlisle Group, and General Motors. He's been successful at each stop. He continues to be active, serving on the boards at American Express and Lockheed Martin, but it's his four years as CEO of General Motors that people remember best. He led GM from 2010 to 2014 where he orchestrated a major turnaround. He joins us today to talk about the auto industry and its supply-chain challenges. He also shares a few stories about leadership, working with Vladimir Putin, and how to knock out a billion dollars in losses.

Podcast (audio)

Dan Akerson: Leading on a Global Scale TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • How the supply chain issues are affecting all corners of manufacturing
  • What are the upcoming challenges in managing automotive inventory
  • Will the new Samsung plant in Texas alleviate the automotive chip shortage in North America
  • How are automotive dealerships dealing with the lack of inventory
  • Why Dan met with Putin
  • How Dan raised funds with Habitat for Humanity to rebuild a neighborhood
  • The importance of giving back to your community
Transcript

Female Speaker

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. This is Leadership & Business, produced by the William & Mary School of Business and its MBA program. Offered in four formats the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. For more information, visit wm.edu.

Ken White

Welcome to Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world, sharing strategies, information and insight to help you become a more effective leader, communicator and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. To say Dan Akerson has had an exciting career is an understatement. He's held leadership positions such as CEO, chairman, President and managing director of top organizations, including MCI, General Instrument, Nextel, the Carlisle Group and General Motors. He's been successful at each stop. He continues to be active, serving on the boards at American Express and Lockheed Martin. But it's his four years as CEO of General Motors that people remember best. He led GM from 2010 to 2014, where he orchestrated a major turnaround. He joins us today to talk about the auto industry and its supply chain challenges. He also shares a few stories about leadership, working with Vladimir Putin, and how to knock out a billion dollars in losses. Here's our conversation with Dan Akerson.

Ken White

Dan, thanks very much for spending some time with us. Welcome to William & Mary.

Dan Akerson

Well thank you.

Ken White

Great to have you here. We can't help but talk about the automotive industry, and it's been a little while since, of course, you led GM, but boy, the automotive supply chain. I mean, it's all everybody seems to be talking about. And it always had been just in time, sort of the supply chain. The pandemic has really interrupted that. What's going to happen moving forward?

Dan Akerson

Well, you're right. It was a just in time inventory type situation, because if you have a billion dollars tied up in inventory, that's not good. So you're going to do it, minimize as much as you can. I also serve on the board as lead director at Lockheed Martin. We see that supply chain, it's affecting every aspect of any manufacturer of any type. You just have to play it close to the vest, do the best you can. I think it's good if you delve into your supply chain and provide some assistance, both managerial and financial, to help these companies stay in business. Hold up inventory if you can. But you can't just stand at the top of the pyramid and expect everything's going to function. You have to kind of through the stone, if you will, of a pyramid, fill the crevices and get down and do what you can to help and keep your supply chain alive and vibrant. And that's going to tie up some capital, but it will be worth it when it finally comes full cycle.

Ken White

Are organizations doing that that you're aware of?

Dan Akerson

Yes, absolutely. I'm more current with Lockheed Martin. We're deep into the supply chain, and I speak routinely with the GM team, and I know they're doing that, but not to the level I do the board I'm on.

Ken White

What do you think the most challenging issues in managing inventories, especially in the automotive industry, will be in the next year, year and a half?

Dan Akerson

Well, I think I would be careful to build deep inventories, whether it was available or not, because it'll come about. But I'd keep above a minimal amount and make sure that I could produce once it turns. You're not going to see a quick turn in automotive. It'll turn over, I think, a six to 18 months. So I'd keep inventory. Let's say I had 100 units prior to this. I'd probably keep 60 to 70 units or add thousands of that number. You're just going to have to eat a little bit of cost to maintain that when it turns. You're not waiting another year to catch up with your inventory and your competitions killing you.

Ken White

Yes. Samsung building a chip production plant in Texas. Does a facility such as this alleviate some problems for North American automotive manufacturers?

Dan Akerson

Well, I don't think it does. It's not as important to automotive as it would be to defense. You've got Taiwan Semiconductor. There's probably 100 billion dollars invested in infrastructure and buildings and technology. I think America I think the Western countries need to recognize and can learn from what's happening in Ukraine today. Who would have thought six months ago, three months ago that Russia would be so foolish as to invade an independent country? And I think it would be foolish not to assume that the Chinese are watching this very carefully. And having served in the Navy for five years, graduated from a service Academy, Naval Academy. Geographically, it's much easier to assist or confront an aggressive foreign power such as Russia in this case. In the next potential case, if they were going to Taiwan, even Taiwan Semiconductor is also building a mega plant in this country, and I think we need to turn some of that resource, that industrial base back to the United States. As we see, instead of a bipolar world, there are going to be likely a tripolar world. And can the United States confront two megapowers on the globe at the same time? And I think, quite frankly, China, which I spent my four years at GM, probably six months. We had twelve plants there building a couple more. It's a huge market. We're serving it. But they are, believe me, I've talked to some senior people in their government. Taiwan is a renegade province. It belongs to China, and that will have to be resolved at some point in time.

Ken White

When you look at when you drive by car dealers, there's just not a lot on the lot right now. What are they thinking? How do they get through day to day?

Dan Akerson

Well, I know quite a few of them. They want to keep getting inventory, car prices, high demand, high price. That's what basics of economics. They'll take cars in before that they used cars that they would have just passed off and put on a lot somewhere to sell for, just to get their money out of it. They're now doing a little spiffing it up and selling it. So they're trying to get inventory of all sorts and it just demands there. But I don't know, it's going to be a while. I think again, I think if we're lucky, you're going to see at least another year, maybe two of this tightened availability.

Ken White

What did you like best about your role at GM? What really excited you about that job?

Dan Akerson

Well, I had the benefit of going on the board in 09 as they came out of bankruptcy, so I knew they had serious problems. I mean, it's hard to describe a company of that stature. The presumed givens were not there. For example, there were four different ledgers, accounting ledgers within the company. So we could barely close the books in the 90 day after the fourth quarter. Get it done before the end of the first quarter. Why? Well, it wasn't that the accountants didn't talk to one another, but it was like they all spoke a romance language. One subsidiary would speak Portuguese, another Spanish, another Italian, and one would be English. And the cross communications was so poor and it took us two years and a lot of money to get everybody on the same balance sheet and the same income statement and the same asset base. It was a nightmare. The fundamentals weren't there, so they had a good view of what was going on in the business. I'm proud to say the last quarter I really was there. It was finished by mid January of the following year, and that usually took until March 31st. And sometimes there were some estimates in there that should have been firm numbers. So that just didn't know what's going on in your business. Payroll was separated in different subsidiaries. We're talking about subsidiaries. Opel was a $35 billion company and we hadn't had a profit in there in eleven years. We were losing a billion dollars a year. We thought about selling it boldly I went out and bought 15% of Puzo. We thought we could amalgamate the two companies and get some scale and it was tough. And I sold transmission plan over there. I did it at an auto show where I said, Well, gee whiz, things are good in Europe, but I won't tell you the name of the auto company, but it was a high end one. A quarter of our production of our transmission goes into their cars. I think that I got a call the next day from the CEO. I said, what are you doing? I says, well, you know, it's true. He says, yeah, but I had an agreement with your predecessor. And I said, well, I didn't see that and I didn't. But I said, I'll tell you what, we'll sell it to you. And he says, well, we got on the books for 400 million dollars. Well, I said, give me $100 million and it's yours, because I don't want all of the post retirement healthcare and retirement and everything else. It's yours. It's all yours. Just give me $100 million in cash. And that cut our losses. And he really had to think. I thought I had a clear field I could do just about anything to improve. To give you an idea, we had four plants in South Korea. Well, the two of them were running at sub performance with a volume that would not produce profit. And we had a half a billion dollars of inventory at sea every day, 365 days a year. And what did we build? We built Chevrolets that looked very comparable to the Opel equivalent. We'd ship it halfway around the world, land in Hamburg, and then we put them in the showroom against Opel, a Chevrolet built in South Korea. Bring it all the way around, having a half a billion dollars money tied up every day of the year. And so I said, we took a 700 million dollar write off to get Chevrolet out. We shut down two plants. My life was threatened by the Korean Labor Union. And so I improved in Korea and I improved in Europe, and we got it to break even. And that was a billion dollars in just losses. And we had to be creative and we had to have a new sheet of paper and come up with a new idea.

Ken White

We'll continue our conversation with Dan Akerson in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If your organization is interested in retaining your best people, consider enrolling them in one of our MBA programs for working professionals. William & Mary's online MBA, part-time MBA and executive MBA programs are designed for the professional who works full time. So both the employee and the organization benefit. Show your employees you care by investing in their growth. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary at wm.edu. Now back to our conversation with the former CEO of General Motors, Dan Akerson.

Ken White

Did you have fun doing that role?

Dan Akerson

Yeah, it was tough. I can honestly say I don't think I slept more than six, 7 hours a night ever in that four year period.

Ken White

You're in high gear the whole time?

Dan Akerson

Yeah. In the middle of night, I'd wake up and write stuff down. I traveled a lot. We sold all of our airplanes. I actually met with Putin in Germany at one time. I mean, I'm sorry in Russia. And we had a plant in St. Petersburg, and I wanted to expand capacity, and they were giving us a hard time. And we were building the plant. We are building Opels, shipping them to a trade zone where they would reassemble them. So we get some break on the import tax. And I said, okay, we'll expand it, but we got to get some concessions to expand this plant. And Putin showed up. St. Petersburg has a version of Davos, only it's in the summer, and it's more attended. Davos is attended globally. This is more European. And I didn't even hear of it before, but I turned up and I thought I was going to meet with the economics Minister. He had a different title, but that's what he was. And Putin shows up, and I'd been on the American Express board for almost 19 years, and he had retired, but we're friends. I asked him if he'd go over with me because I knew if he was there, I'd get the economics Minister there. I didn't think I'd get the economics Minister and Putin. And we walked out of there and he says, Dan, he says, let me tell you, I can read this thing like fortune teller can read your palm. You don't want to meet again. It'll come out. I don't know if this is true. They want a kick back. And I said, I'm not going to jail for this stuff. But it was an interesting job with dimensions to it you can't imagine. And I got very involved in the community. And we raised not literally a five minute drive from the Renaissance Center. The neighborhood looked like something just demolished.

Ken White

Right.

Dan Akerson

And with Habitat for Humanity, I personally put in a large donor. I said, I'd raised $25 million, basically, I called there supply chain, said I put in this much. GM matched mine. So that's about 10% of what we're looking for. And then we ended up raising close to $40 million and rebuilt a neighborhood. It's amazing. And I think back, we had a foundation, GM foundation. And if you want to look like where the money went, all you had to do is look at the executives for the last ten years. And they were spending money to the colleges their children are going to. That had to stop. And I just said, look, we'll help. We'll match whatever you put in then stop. That's one thing. They really weren't all that philanthropic in the good years or the bad years.

Ken White

And that's important for you.

Dan Akerson

Well, I think you've got to be part of your community. I mean, you got to play on the global stage. Heads of State, President of Brazil. I've met some characters. Argentina. There are some very strange people. There are some really unbelievable foreign leaders, too. But it was to me, I always felt a little bit guilty. I went to Annapolis. I served five years. God, and good luck I've had. And here I felt I had to pay something back. So not only did our family foundation, but the GM foundation helped our community. It was funny. A lot of executives that I hired, they were flying in every Monday. I actually bought a place up there. And I pay taxes there. And I even showed up for jury duty. They said, oh, you don't have to do that. I said, I'm like everybody else. Of course I'm the only guy that was there in a suit and tie and of course I didn't get past the first I don't know what they call.

Ken White

They caught you.

Dan Akerson

What are you doing here? I was not representative, but it gets in the local paper. It was your civic duty. The fact that I didn't get selected for jury duty was lucky if I got on one God forbid a murder or something. It could be weeks and I couldn't afford that. But it was symbolism that I wanted to be part of the company. I wanted to be part of the community and I wanted to be a change agent. And it was a wonderful experience.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Dan Akerson and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business, home of the MBA program offered in four formats, the full-time the part-time, the online and the executive MBA. If you're looking for a truly transformational experience, check out the William & Mary MBA program at wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Dan Akerson and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy and productive week ahead.

Female Speaker

We'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks for listening to Leadership & Business.

More Podcast Episodes

 Nicholas Janni
Nicholas JanniEpisode 175: May 5, 2022
A New Paradigm for Leadership

Nicholas Janni

Episode 175: May 5, 2022

A New Paradigm for Leadership

As businesses, organizations, and professionals deal with change like we've never seen before, it makes sense the way we lead will also change. Our guest today says a new leadership paradigm is urgently needed. Nicholas Janni is a sought-after coach, teacher, speaker, and author. He works with the world's top businesses and business schools transforming the way executives lead. He's written a new book "Leader as Healer: A New Paradigm for 21st Century Leadership." He joins us today to discuss his theoretical and practical path to the highest levels of presence and peak performance leadership. The leadership he says is needed moving forward.

Podcast (audio)

Nicholas Janni: A New Paradigm for Leadership TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn | Spotify

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • Does leadership need to change post-pandemic
  • How do senior leaders react to the concept of a leadership paradigm change
  • Will different types of people become leaders after a leadership paradigm shift
  • What is the foundational principle of "Leader as Healer"
  • What are the five interdependent aspects of leader as healer
  • How can a leader live a life of purpose
  • Why should a leader practice mindfulness and meditation
  • How can one convince a leader to change their way of thinking
Transcript

Female Speaker

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. This is Leadership & Business, produced by the William & Mary School of Business and its MBA program. Offered in four formats the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. For more information, visit wm.edu.

Ken White

Well, Nicholas, good afternoon. It's so great to have you with us. Welcome.

Nicholas Janni

Thank you, Ken. Very good to be here.

Ken White

Leader as healer so very interesting. A new paradigm for leadership. Does leadership need to be different post-pandemic and at this time in our lives?

Nicholas Janni

Well, Ken, I believe leadership fundamentally needs to be different for one basic reason, which in a way is the foundation of the book, because, you know, I work with senior leaders all over the world, one to one in teams, and there is one thing that I meet everywhere. And it is a simple fact that the thinking mind is far too dominant, that has become the predominant modality by which people process everything. Whereas Einstein asked one very crucial question, he said, is your mind your master or your servant? And in 99% of the leaders I meet, it's their master. And this is very problematic because the way I see it, it means we're navigating increasingly complex and challenging times with more than one hand tied behind our back because it's like we're using a limited part of the totality of who we are. And Leader as Healer means we have a very sophisticated thinking mind. We also have an emotional body. We have a physical body. We have an intuitive way of sensing. And we understand what it means to sit in a kind of deeper interior, spaciousness, or stillness through meditation and mindfulness. So Leader as Healer brings everything to the table. And I do believe that in these times, more than ever, we absolutely need that because thinking mind alone is not enough.

Ken White

And you've been, as you mentioned. Working with CEOs with senior leadership teams for years on this. How did they react to it?

Nicholas Janni

Once they comprehend what I just said to you, which is not very difficult to comprehend, they completely get it. They completely get it. Especially when we talk about doing and being, which I know you want to talk about, it becomes obvious to them. Absolutely obvious. And I think, to be honest, I think many leaders do know already exactly what I'm saying. But they don't know an alternative. Business schools do not teach an alternative. I believe, to be honest, that most senior leaders put in senior positions with a crazy lack of inner development. All the teaching is strategic, linear, left-brain thinking, which is very important, but it's not the whole picture by a long way. So yes, people really get it. Absolutely.

Ken White

As we embrace this, will we see different types of people becoming leaders?

Nicholas Janni

That's an interesting question. I don't think so necessarily. I'm very interested in working with young leaders. I mean, most of my work is with very senior leaders. What someone recently called the gray hairs. You and me more than me. But I believe that there is a real need to bring this kind of work to young leaders in the political domain and the organizational domain. The world is shaking as we know Ken, and we need the inner resources to navigate.

Ken White

In dealing with aspiring leaders and MBA students, and undergraduate business students. I can see them embracing this quickly. They think a little differently.

Nicholas Janni

That's true. I agree with you. Yes, absolutely.

Ken White

So in Leader as Healer in the book, you have a foundational principle and then five interdependent aspects. And I thought for our audience. They'd probably like us to walk through those. What is the foundational principle?

Nicholas Janni

The foundational principle is that, as cultures for 3000 years have said, we have two fundamental paths to us or modalities. They've been called in Chinese medicine Yang and Ying. In the Greek civilization, they spoke of mythos and logos. Yung brought in the archetype of masculine, the archetype of feminine. I kind of make it more pragmatic by speaking of doing and being. So if you imagine a triangle, the two bottom corners, one is doing, one is being, doing is left brain, analytical proactive what's the next task? Being is right brain, much more receptive, much more sensing, and much more intuitive. My thesis is that high-performing leaders need to be at the top of the triangle using both and not either-or. It's more like we need to learn, and I teach a lot of practices. How do we rest in a bowl of being out of which comes all our doing? That's when we're really in high performance. It's a bit like athletes how they speak of being in the zone. An athlete will say, I receive the ball or in American football, and I feel like I have a lot of time. I know where everyone is. That's there at the top of the triangle.

Ken White

And a great place to be. Athletes will tell you the ball appears ten times bigger than it really is.

Nicholas Janni

Exactly and artists know that scientists know that you speak to. I spoke to brain surgeons who describe exactly that state. And not only do we do our best work, it feels great. It's like a win-win. That's doing and being really in harmony together.

Ken White

Interesting. So that's the foundational principle. Then you have the five interdependent aspects. Number one embracing emotions. What do you mean?

Nicholas Janni

Yes. Well, it's a big one, Ken, because I think we live in a culture where we've got various strange from our emotions. We've created this belief that there are positive and negative emotions, which I utterly disagree with. If we're sad, we need to feel sad. And if we don't, the real danger is we become numb. There's a lot of grief around after COVID. One of the CEOs I work with, very senior CEO, created an extraordinary little grief ritual. When people came back to the office after 18 months out, she gave everyone. It was beautiful what she did. And the thing with emotion is it doesn't need big trauma. It needs acknowledging. Imagine a CEO is leading an important strategic meeting. There's a lot of tension in the air. An emotionally mature leader as healer will pause the meeting and just say, just a moment. There's a lot of anxiety here. I'm feeling it. I'm not sleeping well. I'm sure you're all feeling it. Let's just acknowledge that.

Ken White

Yeah.

Nicholas Janni

And you know, what happens in that moment is literally and metaphorically a sigh of relief. But the important thing, Ken, is that after that, we think much better.

Ken White

Yeah, right.

Nicholas Janni

The critical thinking we prize so highly does not work well when whole parts of us are suppressed.

Ken White

Right.

Nicholas Janni

So this is a really big part of the work. Teams that can sit together and just acknowledge what they're feeling. And my clients report incredible results from this. I put examples in the book senior board meeting, and someone just says, just a moment, how are we all feeling? Two or three minutes sharing whole meeting changes. Whole meeting changes. It's a human being.

Ken White

It makes sense.

Nicholas Janni

Of course. It makes sense. And yet how challenging it is.

Ken White

Right.

Nicholas Janni

This is often the toughest part of the work.

Ken White

Oh, I can see that. Most leaders feel being vulnerable is a weakness. Right.

Nicholas Janni

It's a weakness. Plus, we naturally, I mean, it's a big topic too big for now. But as we develop, we naturally have to close off certain feelings because they were too much to deal with. So this is why I say leader as healer needs to do that in the work. They need to work with a mentor or therapist and get more comfortable with their emotions, or they will not make other people feel comfortable with their emotions.

Ken White

We'll continue our conversation with Nicholas Janni in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If your organization is interested in retaining your best people, consider enrolling them in one of our MBA programs for working professionals. William & Mary's online MBA, part-time MBA, and executive MBA programs are designed for the professional who works full time. So both the employee and the organization benefit. Show your employees you care by investing in their growth. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary at wm.edu. Now back to our conversation on Leader as Healer, a new paradigm for 21st-century leadership, with Nicholas Janni.

Ken White

The second interdependent aspect is the power of embodiment. Can you tell us about that?

Nicholas Janni

Yeah. When we were children, we were completely embodied. Everything was a physical experience. We closed that down, and we have forgotten the power of the body to feel the world, to receive information. We have completely forgotten that. If you look at any pre-industrial culture, Indigenous tribes, their relationship with the natural world is unbelievable. They feel exactly what's happening. We're hardwired for that, Ken. So by shutting off the body, we lose our groundedness, we lose a whole part of our presence, how we come over to people, and we lose this enormous resource of sensing and getting information. When I work with a client, one to one, I'm feeling their interior with enormous precision. How am I doing it? Not through my thinking. My body is feeling. And we don't have to build that. We just have to uncover it. It's our natural state.

Ken White

And be aware.

Nicholas Janni

Yeah, exactly.

Ken White

Interesting. Third, living a life of purpose.

Nicholas Janni

Yeah, I think it's a big topic now in organizations, as I'm sure everyone will know, more and more organizations. I'm working next week, actually, with a big European law firm who, by the way, bought a program called Leader as Healer, which is pretty interesting. And their CEO just published a report a month ago saying, I've realized we need to pay a lot more attention to our purpose. It's what gives life meaning, Ken. William said living without purpose is one of the most grievous wounds to our soul. And purpose is not to make more money. Nothing wrong with making money. Purpose is much deeper than that. Purpose is always about contribution. And we know from all the psychological research on happiness we get much more satisfaction from giving than we do from taking.

Ken White

Sure.

Nicholas Janni

And I believe many organizations are now waking up to the fact that they need their primary purpose is what are we contributing? And more and more organizations are finding they make just as much, if not more, money when they have that kind of purpose. We're at a very transitional time at the moment.

Ken White

And you work with business school students, too. You see how important that is to them as they're seeking that employer after graduation. Really critical now.

Nicholas Janni

Well, we know that from data. We know that millennials will accept lower pay while working for an organization whose values they believe in. Absolutely. It's clearest.

Ken White

Number four the practice of mindfulness and meditation.

Nicholas Janni

Big one. I mean, listen, meditation mindfulness is now used in hospitals, prisons, violent schools with incredible results. A colleague of mine, pre-COVID, was in China. The CEO took her into the atrium. One sign said conference from the other sign said meditation room. This is coming more and more in. Why? Because the very act of paying attention, which is the core of mindfulness, activates our right brain. It activates our feeling of our body. So we immediately enlarge our bandwidth when we practice mindfulness. So our perception immediately gets much wider as opposed to what I said at the beginning, this kind of narrow view of reality. So I teach a way of practicing mindfulness throughout the day. And it doesn't take any time. It's very important. There are certain ways we need to be practicing whatever we're doing, whatever meeting we're in before a Zoom call. I mean, I've been working with people who are spending 10 hours a day on Zoom. Don't just sit there absent. Practice for a moment before a call. Take a moment to breathe, to pay attention to your body. You will show up differently, and you will listen differently.

Ken White

And the fifth interdependent aspect is the call.

Nicholas Janni

Yes. So this is a kind of more advanced in a way because I do believe the very simple story. I used to work in the theater. If an actor used to come to me, let's say, with the Shakespeare text and say, oh, Nicholas, I don't know what to do with this. I would always say something like, look, that's not the right question. The only interesting thing is, what will it do with you? Now everyone knows artists, scientists, leaders, sportspeople, whatever the best ideas come to us, we say it in English. The idea came to me, but that has a very deep implication. So I'm actually working on a whole project with Bob Anderson of the Leadership Circle. And the basic thing we're teaching leaders to do is to learn a completely different level of receptivity. What is it that is trying to come through? Not what do I want to do? What is being asked of us here? It's listening to a much higher level of intelligence, which always comes when we're in the right receptivity.

Ken White

Seems to come when we're calm, correct?

Nicholas Janni

Exactly. For instance, yes. When we're calm when we feel more spacious inside, and we're listening very deeply when we're walking. People get their best ideas in the shower.

Ken White

Absolutely.

Nicholas Janni

People get their best ideas when working out. It's not a coincidence because our energy is flowing, our energy is flowing, and then suddenly, ideas pop in. That's the call. And that's, by the way, I believe, the basis of innovation as well. We don't do innovations. It does us.

Ken White

Yeah. Interesting. So I can see a leadership team, even a group of managers, saying, wow, my plate is full. And now you want me to think differently. What do you say to them in that instance?

Nicholas Janni

The more you embrace this work, the more you will find. First of all, you get much less depleted. Secondly, you get much higher level of connection between everybody, and ultimately you're going to reach a much higher level of performance that will be much more satisfying as well. The argument we don't have time is nonsense.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Nicholas Janni, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. If you'd like to purchase Leader as Healer, a New Paradigm for 21st Century Leadership, it's available now in the UK and will be available in the United States on June 26. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business, home of the MBA program offered in four formats, the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. If you're looking for a truly transformational experience, check out the William & Mary MBA program at wm.edu. Thanks to our guest Nicholas Janni and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

Female Speaker

We'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks for listening to Leadership & Business.

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Molly NissmanEpisode 174: April 21, 2022
The Psychology of Women Investors

Molly Nissman

Episode 174: April 21, 2022

The Psychology of Women Investors

How do you invest your money? Chances are, your gender plays a role in where you invest, how you invest, and the results you generate. When it comes to wealth management, there are considerable differences between the approaches men and women take. Molly Nissman is Vice President, Wealth Management and Portfolio Manager at UBS Financial Services in Norfolk, Virginia. She's spent her career helping people get the most from their money. She was on campus recently for the annual Women's Stock Pitch and Leadership Summit hosted by the William & Mary School of Business and its Boehly Center for Excellence in Finance. She took time to talk with us about women, men, and investing.

Podcast (audio)

Molly Nissman: The Psychology of Women Investors TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What led Molly towards a career in wealth management
  • How did Molly begin targeting women investors
  • Why is the wealth management field still primarily male-dominated
  • What advances might bring more women into the financial services industry
  • Why do more men invest than women
  • Is there a difference where women and men invest
  • Why are women better at long-term investing
  • Has the pandemic affected the way women invest
Transcript

Female Speaker

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. This is Leadership & Business, produced by the William & Mary School of Business and its MBA program. Offered in four formats the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. For more information, visit wm.edu.

Ken White

Welcome to Leadership & Business. The podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world, sharing strategies, information, and insight to help you become a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. How do you invest your money? Chances are, your gender plays a role in where you invest, how you invest, and the results you generate. When it comes to wealth management, there are considerable differences between the approaches men and women take. Molly Nissman is Vice President, Wealth Management, and Portfolio Manager at UBS Financial Services in Norfolk, Virginia. She spent her career helping people get the most from their money. She was on campus recently for the annual Women's Stock Pitch and Leadership Summit hosted by the William & Mary School of Business and its Boehly Center for Excellence in Finance. She took time to talk with us about women, men, and investing. Here's our conversation with Molly Nissman. Molly, thank you very much for sharing your time. Welcome.

Molly Nissman

Thank you, Ken. It's so nice to be here with you and in Williamsburg and at William & Mary today.

Ken White

And it is quite a day. You've been a part of the Women's Stock Pitch and Leadership Summit. Tell us what you did today, what it was like.

Molly Nissman

Oh, these young women are amazing. They are so smart and organized, and tenacious. There were four teams. I was a judge for a stock pitch and four teams from all over the country. And the women pitched a particular stock, and they did the research and the presentation, and it was all by Zoom, which worked fabulously and just so impressive. These young women are so much smarter than I ever was at that age.

Ken White

I was going to ask you. Did you do any of that when you were that age? Were you into looking at stocks like they are?

Molly Nissman

No, not at all. The only thing that I did was, and I became a stockbroker, which now they call us financial advisers. But back when I was a teenager, I would watch my mother chart stocks on paper on the kitchen table, and she would talk about trends and products and businesses. And I guess that made an impression on me because when I graduated from college, I thought, oh, I think I want to be a stockbroker.

Ken White

Did you study it in school?

Molly Nissman

I was a government major, and I minored in economics. So can't really go to school for being a stockbroker financial adviser. And I was the Treasurer of my class in high school a couple of times. So I don't know if that counts, but.

Ken White

So how did you get into the field?

Molly Nissman

I got very lucky. I knocked on the door of Merrill Lynch in Norfolk when I graduated from college, and I was 21 years old. And I told them I wanted to be a stockbroker and the office was full of men. And I was 21 years old. And they said, well, you can have a job as a margin clerk, and you have some experience with numbers. So I took the job, and that was back when the margin calls were calculated by hand. And so I did that for a year. And then there was an opening in the commodity section of the office that Norfolk was a big grain hub and livestock hub back then. And there were ten commodity brokers trading with the different companies like Smithfield Foods and Purdue. And they needed an assistant. So they brought me in as their assistant. And then I did that for a year, and I told them I wanted to be a trader. So at age 24, I became a commodity trader and did that for 20 years.

Ken White

Wow.

Molly Nissman

And then, after that, I had small children at home, and I needed some more flexibility. And it was extremely stressful job, exciting definitely but stressful. So I made a career change and started with PaineWebber, which is now UBS, and began as a financial adviser with my sister. And we targeted women investors, and that was 25 years ago.

Ken White

Wow.

Molly Nissman

So as I said, I got very lucky with the twists and turns of my career. So I've only worked for two companies in my whole life.

Ken White

And it was male-dominated then. Still, fairly much pretty much male-dominated today?

Molly Nissman

Yes. That's such a great question. It really is mostly still male-dominated. And I think only 20% of the financial advisers still are women. That really hasn't changed that much over the years. And I think there are a couple of reasons. One of the reasons, I think, is because of the way that we're compensated. We're compensated by selling financial products, and the other way we get paid is assets under management. And so we don't get credit for helping our clients with their financial plans or creating a successful college funding plan, or helping them decide about long-term health care. That's definitely part of our job as consultants, but we don't physically get paid for that. And I think women are not motivated by money and how much money they make. And so it's definitely a problem. Definitely a dichotomy in how we get paid and how we take care of our clients. I think physicians have that problem now also. They're on a time clock, but they have to take care of their patients and do diagnoses on them and care for them. There's not enough time.

Ken White

Interesting. Do you think it could possibly change with time going as we move forward?

Molly Nissman

I think it can change. The other issue, I think, for why there aren't that many women, as many women in our business as financial advisors. I think that one of the issues is the markets are always open, which is a good thing because we want the markets to always remain open. But it's hard to take vacations. It's hard to take maternity leave. And I didn't have maternity when I had my children, my young children, there was no maternity leave. You didn't get paid because you were on commission. So that was problematic.

Ken White

Yeah.

Molly Nissman

And so, for women who might want a family and flexibility to go to your child's soccer game or tennis match or take a vacation, it's very difficult. And it's changing because the way that financial advisers are working now is they're working more in teams, which is much more of just a better model. So you might work under a team with two or three or four different advisors, maybe, who are more senior. And that way, you can learn, you can grow, you can have different expertise on your team. And, of course, that's better for clients.

Ken White

Sure.

Molly Nissman

Definitely better for clients. And as Adam Grant, who's the best-selling author, talks about that, group decisions are better than single-person decisions. That's definitely the case when you have a team. So I think that trend is going to help women get into the financial services industry more.

Ken White

Yeah. Time will tell.

Molly Nissman

Time will tell. That's right. Time will tell.

Ken White

And there are certainly differences in the way men and women invest as well, correct?

Molly Nissman

Oh, yes, absolutely.

Ken White

So, for example, and we call this what the psychology of the investor basically. Right. For example, we know, according to most reports, that men invest more so than women, a higher percentage of men. Why is that?

Molly Nissman

I think that is changing, but that trend is a slow trend. But I think you're right. I think, for the most part, more men tend to invest, at least in the traditional stock and bond markets, than women. I think it goes back to women have not controlled their financial destiny very long. It wasn't but 100 years ago where women couldn't vote or own land.

Ken White

Sure.

Molly Nissman

So that trend takes a long time to change. And I also think that men are much more willing to take risk. That's in their DNA. They're the hunter-gatherers. Their job is to go out and hunt and protect the family and to take those risks. And that, I think, translates into taking risks in the market. They're much more from what I've seen. They're much more willing to take a gamble. They want to make a killing. They want to do the quick win. And that's not necessarily bad. I've heard from women, I'm not going to invest in cryptocurrency until they get the bugs out. I'm not going to invest my hard-earned money in this until I can be sure that it's going to survive. So, yes, there is a difference. I think a lot of it is just the difference in genetics.

Ken White

We'll continue our conversation with Molly Nissman in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If your organization is interested in retaining your best people, consider enrolling them in one of our MBA programs for working professionals. William & Mary's online MBA, part-time MBA, and executive MBA programs are designed for the professional who works full time. So both the employee and the organization benefit. Show your employees you care by investing in their growth. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary at wm.edu. Now back to our conversation with Molly Nessman.

Ken White

What about where men invest, and women invest? What are some of the differences there stocks, gold, and so forth? Is there a difference that you see?

Molly Nissman

Yes, I have seen a difference. I think women have been much more drawn to investments like bonds, which produce an income stream, predictable most of the time predictable, reliable income stream, not as volatile as stocks. And that's more comforting for women who aren't as willing to take risks with their money, but they are willing to invest in stocks, and they're much more willing to hold the stocks for the long run. And so that makes them better investors. It's hard to quantify, but because they're looking at the long run and they're willing to invest for that long term, that gives them a better outcome in the end. And that just goes back to what we talked about, about the men wanting the quick kill, the quick win, the gamble.

Ken White

But much of what we read is saying that women outperform men.

Molly Nissman

Yes, and I do think that's true because they are willing to commit their money for the long run and leave it in place. That's the key because if you're getting in and out of the market all the time, you're going to miss a lot of the upward movement. So it's tempting for sure, especially lately when you've seen these huge decreases and increases in the market, the volatility because of the pandemic, and because of the Ukraine situation. It's very tempting to say, well, I'll just get out for a few days and buy things back when the market is down three or 4%. But what happens is nobody can predict that. And so, most of the time, you're better off to leave everything, have a plan, leave everything in place, continue to add money as you can add money, and stay with it for the long run. And women are really good at that.

Ken White

Who's better at seeking advice from a professional like you? Do men tend to do that more so than women, or women do that more so than men?

Molly Nissman

Oh, that's another great question. I hope I won't get in trouble with this one. I think women, it's the same thing. We are really good at outsourcing. And just like you would hire a CPA to do your taxes because you don't want to do your taxes and you don't want to learn all the tax rules, and they can do it a lot faster than you can and more efficient and less likely to get audited. It's the same concept with financial investments and investing. I think women are willing to say I'm willing to pay somebody for their expertise, and that will save me time and money over the long run. And I think men, it's a bit of a macho situation where I can do this myself. I'm smart, and the men are smart, and I think both men and women can invest themselves. If you have enough time and it's a full-time job, if you have enough time, I do think you could do it yourself, but I think men are probably more likely to say, I want to do it myself, I can do it myself, and I don't need help with it.

Ken White

We've seen the pandemic affect women differently than it has affected men. I mean, as soon as we saw people leave work, it was the women who were leaving work in the early part of the pandemic versus the men. Has the pandemic affected the way women have been investing over the last couple of years? Have you noticed anything?

Molly Nissman

Yes, it has. It's made it difficult for women because women were the ones who lost more jobs because they make up a greater percent of the service industry. They also were the ones who were more likely to stay home with the children because the children are out of school. And so when you've lost your job, or you're working part-time because you can't work full time, because you have to get home at two o'clock when your children get home, or you have to help them on their Zoom homework, you don't have as much money to invest, and that's problematic. So, yes, I think the women more likely to make more conservative investments. They had less money, less money to invest, less money to live on, so definitely affecting them more than men in this situation.

Ken White

You may have inadvertently answered it earlier, but what advice? You've been working with these young women during the stock pitch competition. Right. Women that age coming out of college, what advice do you have for them once they start getting that regular paycheck? And in terms of investing, what's your advice?

Molly Nissman

This is definitely my favorite question. My advice would be very clear would be you've got to start now and save money, and you've got to do that with discipline and regularly and be frugal in your lifestyle. And remember that down the road, you're the only one who's going to be in charge of your destiny. And the earlier you start investing, the better. And always remember to buy quality. Buy quality stocks, buy quality bonds, buy quality real estate, because when the markets turn down, which they always do, real estate, we have downturns. That's a long cycle. Stocks and bonds have their different cycles. There's always some kind of downturn. Quality will hold up better, so in all things, stocks, bonds, art, precious gems, cryptocurrency, do not buy any sloppy cryptocurrency. That's a highly technical term, even furniture. Nobody wants to sit on a lumpy sofa for 20 years. So you want to buy quality for sure. And that if you invest regularly and commit yourself for the long term and continue to add money, even if it's only a few hundred dollars a month, you will be a very successful investor.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Molly Nissman, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business, home of the MBA program offered in four formats, the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. If you're looking for a truly transformational experience, check out the William & Mary MBA program at wm.edu. Thanks to our guest Molly Nissman and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

Female Speaker

We'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks for listening to Leadership & Business.

More Podcast Episodes

 Kristen Roby Dimlow
Kristen Roby DimlowEpisode 173: April 8, 2022
Holistic Wellbeing at Microsoft

Kristen Roby Dimlow

Episode 173: April 8, 2022

Holistic Wellbeing at Microsoft

More than ever before, companies and organizations are placing great emphasis on their employees by offering more flexible work schedules, or investing greatly in education and training programs. Some, like Microsoft, are focusing on the general wellbeing of their employees. Microsoft has created and launched its Holistic Wellbeing Program - a series of offerings that support employees in four specific wellbeing areas: physical, mental, financial, and social. Kristen Roby Dimlow is a graduate of William & Mary. She's Vice President, Total Rewards, Performance, and HR Business intelligence at Microsoft. She joins us to talk about the Holistic Wellbeing Program there, what it entails, and what it's doing for Microsoft and its employees.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn | Spotify

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • How long Kristen has been at Microsoft and what it means to be a “boomerang”

  • What the Microsoft Holistic Wellbeing Program is

  • What the response has been to the program

  • How COVID has de-stigmatized mental wellbeing

  • How Microsoft is making their products more accessible

  • What are financial wellbeing needs

  • How the Holistic Wellbeing Program started

  • What have been the effects of the program

Transcript

Kristen Roby Dimlow: Holistic Wellbeing at Microsoft TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Female Voice

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. This is Leadership & Business, produced by the William & Mary School of Business and its MBA program, offered in four formats the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. For more information, visit wm.edu.

Ken White

Welcome to Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world, sharing strategies, information, and insight that help you become a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Well, more than ever before, companies and organizations are placing great emphasis on their employees by offering more flexible work schedules or investing greatly in education and training programs. Some, like Microsoft, are focusing on the general well-being of their employees. Microsoft has created and launched its Holistic Well Being program, a series of offerings that support employees in four specific well-being areas: physical, mental, financial, and social. Kristen Roby Dimlow is a graduate of William & Mary. She's Vice President, Total Rewards, Performance, and HR Business Intelligence at Microsoft. She joins us to talk about the Holistic Well-being program there, what it entails and what it's doing for Microsoft and its employees. Here's our conversation with Kristen Roby Dimlow.

Ken White

Well, Kristen, it's nice to see you. Thank you very much for sharing your time with us.

Kristen Roby Dimlow

I am thrilled to be here. Thanks, Ken.

Ken White

So when you think about William & Mary. What comes to mind?

Kristen Roby Dimlow

Oh, my gosh. I have so many happy memories of William & Mary, and it was a great education. And I also had so much fun being in Williamsburg, and I still have some very close friends. So it's been with me my whole life just about.

Ken White

That's great. And I walk these halls every day, and I'm just in awe of the students who are a part of our University and our business school. It's really something here. Yeah. And it's nice to speak to graduates like you. Who've been doing some really wonderful things. So Microsoft, how long have you been there, and what's your role?

Kristen Roby Dimlow

I've been with Microsoft off and on for 23 years, and I'm what we call a boomerang. So about seven years ago, I left Microsoft to be a head of HR for a small technology company in Seattle. And I lasted all of 16 months because I missed Microsoft so much. But my current role there is head of Total Rewards and HR Business Insights. And so that is compensation benefits, global mobility, and people analytics. And it's perfect for me because it's a blend of HR and finance. And my career has kind of been half and half started out in finance and then moved into HR and have found myself in the perfect hybrid role for both.

Ken White

Yeah, fantastic. So tell us about the Holistic Well-being at Microsoft. This is interesting.

Kristen Roby Dimlow

This is really neat. I think most companies have always been very thoughtful about physical well-being. If you think about benefits, everybody has some sort of health care plan. Many of us have more recently started to accentuate the importance of fitness for a healthy body. But what we've realized is I think of it as a positive success loop where there are different elements of well-being and wellness. So physical, obviously, but mental more recently, I think we're getting more and more comfortable across the globe in talking about mental well-being and mental health, financial well-being, and then we talk about social well-being. And what we found is if you're off on any one of these, it manifests in the others. And so over the last, say, four or five years, we've been really trying to promote holistic well-being.

Ken White

And what's the response been? The reaction?

Kristen Roby Dimlow

Fantastic, I would say, especially on mental well-being. This was something that we started a few years ago, and we were somewhat naive. We had an employee assistance program, just like many people do, where people can call and get counseling support as needed. But we started 1 May. May is mental health awareness month, and we started that year with a campaign called It's Okay Not to Be Okay. And our idea was to try to destigmatize mental health. We started in a very sort of small way. We just reminded people about the EAP. We also brought in a few documentaries on mental health. And what we didn't expect was the outpouring of support. And we had leaders who actually stood up and told their own stories. And we got such a positive response that just this little foray into reminding people it's okay not to be okay really started something very, very cool at Microsoft. And we've continued to build since then. One of the things that's been interesting, the COVID pandemic, has really accelerated the destigmatization of mental well-being. I think there was a study that 42% of Americans about a year ago were feeling more anxious. And I would say that anxiety has only grown given geopolitical events, given some of the racial injustice, given just the lack of control in people's lives. My heart really goes out to people with young children where they're trying to juggle school from home or even when they do go back, then having to have them come back because someone in the classroom has become infected. It's just ongoing anxiety. And so we've all sort of woken up to realize this is something we all have. And so it's been, I would say a bit of a silver lining is that it's really destigmatized mental health.

Ken White

No question. It is amazing how people will self-disclose in that area now compared to even just a few years ago. I think you're right. It's the pandemic, right. I think it put everybody on equal footing. So other than the initial introduction to that piece of it, have you done more or plan to do more in other things?

Kristen Roby Dimlow

We have done more. And I would say we're only really getting started because I think there's so much going on in this space that we're just learning every day. But beyond our EAP, we tried to make sure that people understood what their medical benefits included. We wanted to make sure that they understood leave practices. At Microsoft, we have a certain amount of sick days per year. We relabeled them sick and mental well-being days. And that was something that didn't cost us a dime but was hugely influential. And again, saying, it's okay not to be okay. It's okay to take time off from work if you need it. We also have an amazing what we call an ERG, which is an employee resource group on mental health. And so, they have been phenomenal. And then even in our products, Microsoft is trying really hard to build products that are accessible, and that includes for mental health or neurodiverse populations. And so, I would give big kudos to our Xbox group. We have a game studio in the UK that is building a game based on mental health, has a character with mental health condition. And so, all of this is coming together in a beautiful way. My team sort of brings the benefits. We've also introduced talk space where people can do chat counseling. In addition to the EAP, we've offered Headspace, which is a really cool app to support mindfulness and mental well-being. And then the ERG brings in their own expertise. They have people who are very brave and willing to share their own journeys and support each other. We've also worked with our training organization to provide trainings to both employees and managers about what to do when you're not feeling okay, how to articulate it, whom to go to for help. If you're a manager, hey, you don't need to be a counselor. You do not need to be the one to diagnose. 80% of it is listening, and then 20% is helping them find the resources that they need to support. So it's been amazing. I would say it's a beautiful one Microsoft moment where everybody's coming in together to try to lift this initiative because we all have experienced anxiety ourselves, or we know people with mental health conditions.

Ken White

Are you seeing in terms of participation any more from younger versus older, male versus female, one sector or part of the company than the other?

Kristen Roby Dimlow

That's a wonderful question. I actually haven't broken it down in a huge amount of detail, but I would say across the board, we're pretty much up. And one of the challenges we've had, and I think everyone's experiencing this is our EAP providers are overloaded. And one of the things I did I had a leadership team strategy meeting, and we invited one of the counselors to come in and talk to us about what they're seeing. And they said they just feel bad, that they cannot get through all of the people in their cues. And so there are cues of people that are sort of waiting. They also talked about the importance of putting their own oxygen masks on. So even our counselors need counseling, so that was helpful. The other thing we learned through this, again from our ERG group. So not from the one on accessibility or on mental health, but our Blacks at Microsoft ERG asked us to have more diversity in the counselors themselves, which makes so much sense, right? There are different cultures around the world, different races, different ideas on things. And so it's important that the counselors look like the employees whom they're serving. And so that was a huge unlock for us. I don't see it as one area or another. I will say that across the board, we have to think of that diversity and inclusion piece. And I'd also say anecdotally. I feel like younger generation is more comfortable saying that they're not feeling okay. So I think maybe some of us call myself out baby boomers. You were taught to be stoic and not complain. And I think that's really unhealthy. So I love to see that earlier in career, are a little more willing to step up and say, hey, I need a mental well-being day.

Ken White

Being around young people, they are changing the world for the better, I can tell you for sure.

Ken White

We'll continue our conversation with Kristen Roby Dimlow in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If your organization is interested in retaining your best people, consider enrolling them in one of our MBA programs for working professionals. William & Mary's online MBA, part-time MBA, and executive MBA programs are designed for the professional who works full-time. So both the employee and the organization benefit. Show your employees you care by investing in their growth. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary at wm.edu. Now back to our conversation on Holistic Well-being at Microsoft with Kristen Roby Dimlow.

Ken White

So how about the financial side? What do you seeing there and the needs that you're seeing?

Kristen Roby Dimlow

Well, this is great. So many companies have a lot of financial well-being benefits for employees, starting with pay. And so pay, 401K, some people have ESPP programs. A lot of times, if you have a 401K program, you probably have access to financial counseling. And we do through our provider. And so we try to spend a lot of time working with employees to make sure they understand what their benefits are and then try to also think about what are the different groups, what are their needs. So earlier in career care a lot about student loan payback. So we try to offer that up at the right time. People who are maybe a little older have children who are thinking of going off to college, need assistance, thinking about how am I going to finance that. As you get close to retirement, thinking about how am I going to retire? What do I need to know? So we try to think about those different constituencies. I think another interesting one is people who might be new to the United States. So we have a lot of global mobility. We have people come in from other countries where the financial landscape is very different, or maybe there's a greater social safety net than in the United States. And so we need to teach them what is a 401k program? What is an ESPP? Why is this? I was talking to a young woman, and I said to her, hey, you're investing in our 401k, right, because there's a massive upside for you to do that. And she said I have so many student loans. I'm really not. I have a real cash flow issue. First of all, that motivated me to do more on student loans, but also made me realize I really need to educate people of the importance of retirement and really thinking about how to put their money to work for them.

Ken White

This is a massive undertaking. I mean, employers, a generation ago, it was a paycheck and maybe some health insurance. Wow. How did this start? I mean, I know it's a big organization, but where did it all come from and the momentum?

Kristen Roby Dimlow

Yeah, well, we were lucky in that we've always had pretty decent benefits, but we have more recently been more thoughtful of our diverse populations and what sorts of things they need. And so we've been trying to ensure that when we look across the landscape that our benefits are inclusive, that they're supporting our culture. So Satya Nadella has been our CEO for about seven years. He brought us the idea of growth mindset. He's very inspired by Carol Dweck, who wrote the book Mindset and brought that to Microsoft. And so, as part of growth mindset, we also have cultural pillars around diversity and inclusion, customer obsession, and one Microsoft. What he brought us was so incredible because we really needed to reinvent ourselves. We were sort of like the 45-year-old startup, and it was time to let some of our old practices go and embrace some new ones. And one of them was this idea of growth mindset where we don't have all the answers. We need to think more about our customers, and we needed to act as one Microsoft. So that sort of started a lot of stuff, including this idea of what do we need to do with our benefits and compensation in order to be more diverse and inclusive and to promote one Microsoft. So that's how some of this started. It's been really great.

Ken White

You're obviously doing it for the right reasons, but there are certainly some benefits to the organization. We're seeing people just leave jobs so quickly now. I mean, it is really something. Have you seen some positive effects in terms of the great resignation?

Kristen Roby Dimlow

We have. So I like to think of it as the great reshuffle because what I see is people taking on new opportunities, and we have been lucky in that while we have seen attrition rates resurge to pre-pandemic levels, I'm not seeing some of what I see in our industry, which is great. And part of that is having a great value proposition. So again, like you're reminding me, one of our challenges was articulating everything that exists for employees at Microsoft. So I had someone on my teamwork with one of our corporate communications people to think about value proposition. And luckily, they didn't listen to me because what I wanted them to do was so far off from what they learned our employees needed. So what they did was global focus groups. They went around the world and talked to all different, and virtually they didn't get on planes. They did it virtually, but they talked to employees all over the world to say, what is it about Microsoft that you love? And it wasn't the pay and benefits. The pay and benefits were like entry into the door. It's the ante to get into the game. But what they loved was it came down to four pillars, community, growth, the ability to grow, well-being, and flexibility. And Ironically, this all happened pre-COVID, which was wild because these pillars are so durable and, especially during COVID, the idea of flexibility. What they meant at that time when we were doing these focus groups was they loved that they were able to go to a kid's soccer game, that they were able to start early, that they were able to work from home a day or two a week because commutes were so difficult. That was their idea of flexibility. We've now learned after two years of this that there is this future of work which was much more nimble, much more flexible. And so I feel like, to your point, it's important for an employer to try to get all of these things right, and holistic well-being is the primary part of that. So when we articulated the value proposition, then we realized, okay, our go-to-market strategy is to start telling people what exists in each of these buckets and the way we did it, which, again, not my idea. Their idea they were smarter than I am was they got employees to tell the stories. So they went and found employees who would tell stories about why is community important to me? Why is well-being important to me? We got people to tell unbelievable stories. And those I'm sure with your background, you probably know this. There's nothing better than a real person telling, like, I can tell somebody, but as the head of paying benefits, people feel like I have an agenda. So it's much better to hear from one of their peers what's going on.

Ken White

Nice. All forms of media in terms of the storytelling.

Kristen Roby Dimlow

Yeah. Mostly right now, we're doing a lot with just online because videos, but even just short anecdotes that go in mail. And of course, a lot of people don't read mail these days. So we also promote social media. We have a hashtag Microsoft life, and so we encourage employees to do hashtag Microsoft life. My thing is called essentials. So I do hashtag essentials as well. But I think you'll see Microsoft Life more than essentials if I'm honest. But it's been just a fabulous way. It scales globally. It resonates globally. We sort of did a walking kit for people so with lots of PowerPoints or images that they could use so that they can customize campaigns. So if you're in Germany, you can take our collateral and customize it for what's going on in Germany. So that's been great. I'd love to share one other thing we've learned with you, and I got this from my boss. So she came up with it, but her name is Kathleen Hogan. She's the CHRO of Microsoft, and she was trying to articulate the importance of employee engagement, and she took a riff from Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So she came up with the five P's of employee engagement. And so it's purpose at the top, followed by pride, people, perks, and pay. And so, if you think of pay and perks are foundational. It's what I was saying earlier. It's like food and shelter. That's got to be good before you even think about retaining anybody. You need to have a decent story there. But then it's sort of the top of the pyramid are more of the intrinsic benefits. Right. And thanks to Satya for giving us amazing purpose. So the Microsoft mission is to empower every person and every organization on the planet to achieve more. And that's one of the reasons, honestly, why I came back to Microsoft. I probably was at a stage where I could have been done, but Microsoft's purpose is so aligned to my personal purpose. And then the pride in the company, so proud of the products we make and what they do for employees or do for people around the world. And then the people with whom I work, it's really cool. We work with some amazing people. And that was another reason why I think I came back. And then the perks and pay are super important, too. But all of that comes together. So both our five P's as well as our essentials. If we can kind of keep that in balance, then we're able to retain people. And some people do leave. Some people feel like the grass is greener, but we have a lot of boomerangs, too. I think 11% of our hires back are boomerang employees. So I think that they kind of go like, you might get a teaser right, you might get a little bit of a sign-on bonus or a bigger stock package. And I do believe you can get pay anywhere. You can get more pay anywhere where you go. But it's the holistic package that keeps you sort of coming in and feeling great about a company. Anyway, we're trying to make all that work. We're not perfect yet. We're still learning a bunch. But I feel like both of these have been helpful ways to try to articulate what the Microsoft deal is for employees.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Kristen Roby Dimlow, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business, home of the MBA program offered in four formats, the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. If you are looking for a truly transformational experience, check out the William & Mary MBA program at wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Kristin Roby Dimlow, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

Female Voice

We'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks for listening to Leadership & Business.

More Podcast Episodes

 Chris Caracci
Chris CaracciEpisode 172: March 21, 2022
The Customer Experience

Chris Caracci

Episode 172: March 21, 2022

The Customer Experience

We've all been there: You go to a local business, or visit a hotel, or go online to make a purchase, and the experience is awful. If it's bad enough, you decide to never go back again. Which means the business - at a minimum - has lost a customer. That's where Chris Caracci steps in. He helps organizations improve their customer experience. He spent years at the Disney Institute working with clients across the world. Today he continues to help all types of businesses and organizations deliver a high quality customer experience. He joins us to talk about the customer experience, its importance, and how improvement starts at the top.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What is the customer experience
  • What are the top measures of good customer experience
  • How important is customer loyalty in relation to high quality customer experiences
  • How many different touchpoints contribute to the customer service experience
  • Why businesses should not put their customer service policies on autopilot
  • How good customer service practices can translate in the healthcare field
  • Why hiring the right people is important to good customer service
  • How has the pandemic affected the customer experience
  • What is step one for an organization that is lacking in quality customer experiences
Transcript

Chris Caracci: The Customer Experience TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Female Voice

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. This is Leadership & Business, produced by the William & Mary School of Business and its MBA program, offered in four formats the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. For more information, visit wm.edu.

Ken White

Welcome to Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. Sharing strategies, information, and insight that help you become a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Well, we've all been there, you go to a local business or visit a hotel or go online to make a purchase and the experience is awful. If it's bad enough, you decide to never go back again, which means the business, at a minimum, has lost a customer. In today's competitive market, no business can afford to lose customers. Well, that's where Chris Caracci steps in. He helps organizations improve their customer experience. He spent years at the Disney Institute, working with clients across the world. Today, he continues to help all types of businesses and organizations deliver a high-quality customer experience. He joins us to talk about the customer experience, its importance, and how improvement starts at the top. Here's our conversation with Chris Caracci.

Ken White

Well, Chris, thanks so much for joining us and sharing your time with us. Great to see you.

Chris Caracci

I'm happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Ken White

Right before we hit the record button, I was saying that I think literally on every episode we've done, customer comes up. Of course, we're always thinking about the customer. I think you think about customer a little differently when you talk about customer experience. What is that?

Chris Caracci

Customer experience, and we hear that a lot is really the accumulation of service experiences end to end. When you have in your business, you have a customer. I'll call them the customer doing business with you, whether they're buying a service from you or they're buying a product from you. It's everything from their first touchpoint with your organization. And that could be through an advertisement that they see online all the way through any kind of follow-up service or follow-up care that they need post them using your service or your product. That's the customer experience. But it's filled with sometimes hundreds of what we call customer touchpoints. And those customer touchpoints are really where the service if you want to use that phrase customer service, that's where the service takes place. But it can be anything. It can be, as I said, it can be viewing an advertisement because there's a service moment there all the way through to a voice to voice experience, a face-to-face experience, a computer to computer experience, whatever that looks like. All of those add up, and they leave an impression. All those touchpoints leave an impression that impacts whether or not you as a consumer walk away with a positive impression of my organization. Who's selling whatever I'm selling to you, or a mediocre impression, a neutral impression, as we call it, a neutral series of touchpoints, or even negative. And the goal is to come out of that with a positive customer experience. That doesn't mean that it's perfect. It's never perfect.

Ken White

Sure.

Chris Caracci

But the goal is to have more positive touchpoints than neutral or negative touchpoints because that leaves a positive impression in your head, the consumer. And that is what drives loyalty back to the organization, to repurchase the service or product or to recommend us. Those are the two top measures and a lot of organizations that take customer experience seriously to find out whether people are loyal to them in one of those ways or the other.

Ken White

That loyalty pays off, obviously.

Chris Caracci

It does pay off because we all know the cost of acquiring new customers is very, very expensive. The cost of retaining customers that you already have is far less expensive. And we know that over time, a loyal customer that stays with you for a long period of time, their average spending with you goes up. So ultimately, it's about creating that loyalty. I think where the confusion happens sometimes, Ken, is that organizations equate customer service with loyalty. They will measure customer service. If I can use that phrase again, they'll measure that and think, well, we just need to be good at customer service. We don't need to look at the continuum of that experience very much. If we're just good at the service points here and there enough to be positive, and there's confusion there because they think that that drives the customer coming back. There's not, at least in my experience with working with industries around the world in different cultures, is that loyalty is not talked about enough. When we talk about the customer experience, we're too focused on the moment, and we're not focused on the long-term effects of high-quality customer experiences.

Ken White

And there could be so many touchpoints. I'm thinking of a local dry cleaner. There's quite a few touchpoints, let alone a massive organization.

Chris Caracci

Absolutely. And that dry cleaner needs to pay attention. I'll give you an example. I went to a dry cleaner all the time in a location that I used to live in Florida, and it was a small dry cleaner. And I used to drop off my dry cleaning every week and pick it up every week. But when I pulled up in the parking lot, the dry cleaner had these big picture windows so they could see the parking lot clearly from inside. And by the time I parked my car and came inside, my laundry was waiting for me on the stack, and she'd already rung me up. And that's a small business. Right. But what that tells me is they've hired somebody and taught them that you need to pay attention to the customer, get to know your customers. Not only that, when I walk through the door, they call me by my name. Those are all touchpoints. And at the end of the day, I will pay more for my shirt to be cleaned there. Then I will go across the street where they don't have that kind of personalized service, and the price point may be lower. So we know that customers will pay more if you pay attention to them and give them care.

Ken White

You worked for a long time for the Disney Institute. Is there any organization better at this than Disney? I think that's who most people think of.

Chris Caracci

Disney is up there. I think because it's always historically service has been always historically a part of the organization. It was an important thing, a business piece to focus on for Walt Disney himself. And I think the beauty of the company is that they still live the things that he taught that he believed in all these years later. He died in 1966. That's a long time ago.

Ken White

Wow, yeah.

Chris Caracci

But yeah, the fundamentals around how he cared for people, the service that he wanted to give to his customers, the experiences he wanted to get very high quality still with the company today. And the beauty of that, as I've taught it for years, 20 years with the Disney Institute, is that that is so foundational and fundamental that it doesn't change very much. The customer still wants you to pay attention to them, and that has not changed. Maybe you do it a little differently. Maybe technology helps us do those things a little differently in some ways now than it did in 1966, surely, but the customer is still looking for the same kinds of things. So when I work with organizations, as I do now around the world, teaching them these philosophies around, how do you bring that great customer experience to your own organizations? The things that I impress upon them is that you can never take your eye off this. You always have to be making sure you're paying attention to every detail every day. You can't put it on autopilot because it won't sustain. You have to give it attention every single day. So I have especially enjoyed with my years with the Disney Institute, working with healthcare way back when, when I first came out of college, I worked in hospitals as a respiratory therapist. So a lot of my work with the Institute was healthcare-related because healthcare, at least in the United States, is looking to come back to the patient's experience. The patient got lost in healthcare in the United States for many, many decades. You were just another last name on a chart. And the focus became so much around the medical care that they forgot about caring for the human that you're actually caring for.

Ken White

Sure.

Chris Caracci

So they came to us early on at Disney and said, can you teach us the same fundamental things about how you've structured your culture around service so that they will work in our environment with our patients. And that's precisely what we did. So, again, even in an industry like healthcare, we're coming back to you have consumers, you don't call them customers, you call them patients, but they're the same thing. They're consuming healthcare. You're providing healthcare. They need to have a quality experience that matches the quality medical care that you're giving them. And those two things have to be married.

Ken White

Yeah. If they have a good experience, they'll come back.

Chris Caracci

Absolutely. And in health care, you don't always necessarily want them back. You want them to do something for them, hopefully in some situations where they don't have to come back. But the other part of that loyalty is not only returning to come back for more service, but it's also the recommendation, which means speaking highly about that organization to your friends and to your colleagues and letting them know that you had a great experience there. You may never have to go back there for care, but you have spread the word now to other people that your experience was one that was very worthwhile.

Ken White

Yeah. Having brand ambassadors makes life easier, doesn't it?

Chris Caracci

It does.

Ken White

Yeah.

Ken White

We'll continue our conversation with Chris Caracci in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If your organization is interested in retaining your best people, consider enrolling them in one of our MBA programs for working professionals. William & Mary's online MBA, part-time MBA, and executive MBA programs are designed for the professional who works full-time. So both the employee and the organization benefit. Show your employees you care by investing in their growth. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary at wm.edu. Now back to our conversation on the customer experience with Chris Caracci.

Ken White

I may have shared this with you. I've actually shared it on the podcast several times because it just stuck with me. When we had Kim Lopdrup on, he's been on twice. He's the former CEO of Red Lobster. He said people who succeed in his field have the hospitality gene. They take great pleasure in seeing a couple of folks come in, a group of people come in and have a great meal and a good time and leave. Is it like that with the customer experience? I'm assuming you've got to have that gene to really get into it.

Chris Caracci

It is. So much of service can be trained, but if you don't start out with somebody that's trainable, then you're not going to get anywhere. So it was a definite strategy for Disney, and it still is today when they hire people, especially working in positions where they're dealing with customers every day, but certainly, internally as well, they're looking for the individual who has generally a positive nature and a positive attitude towards everything. Towards their lives, towards their work experience, because we know and the Society for Human Resource Management tells us this, that there is a percentile in the teens of individuals in the United States that don't have that positivity and it affects their whole lives. I don't know the reasons behind that. All that I know is when you're hiring people, and you're hiring people to deliver service and experiences, you don't want to hire anyone coming from that 15% or that 17% of the population that doesn't find, as you call it, that hospitality piece that doesn't find that comfortable or isn't outgoing in a way that they can be positive with people that they're dealing with either internally or externally. So you have to back up the process of good service all the way into your hiring practices to make sure that you hire the right individuals. That, to his point, have that hospitality gene that you can see that's very visible and very noticeable in the individual, because then, you know, we have the service structure, as Disney does, that we can train them to use, and they're going to hit it out of the park every single day.

Ken White

We all know those people. Yeah.

Chris Caracci

We all know those people. And you know the people who are part of the 15 or 17%.

Ken White

That's true.

Chris Caracci

As I joke, we have those people in our families, too, right? But we all know who those are. You don't want them working for you. If customer service is a primary focus because you will spend a lot of time and energy with training, that most of the time won't go anywhere.

Ken White

I think most of us would put Disney up there in the Hall of Fame in terms of the customer experience. Who else is in that group?

Chris Caracci

Some other names that come to mind immediately. Ritz Carlton. They do it extremely well. They have a system around their service. They have a structure around their service. They hire people into their organization who can function well in that structure. Organizations like Nordstrom, from a retail standpoint, family-owned company originally but very focused on the customer experience and the personalization of the experience. Southwest Airlines to that, now a lot has been going on with Southwest in these last ten years, but their focus has been on customer service and trying to improve the experience, sort of disrupting when they first came on the scene, disrupting the airline industry and doing things differently than anybody had done, all in the name of trying to make the experience better for their customers. So there was a focus there. And you can always tell with a company the way you're treated by their employees, the way you're treated by the experience, whether or not they're actually focusing on it or not, you can tell right away because those things just don't happen by accident. They're highly customized. The experiences are customized, the touchpoints are all customized, and you notice it right away as a customer.

Ken White

So who's responsible when you're working with companies and organizations? Is there a certain title with whom you're working? Or does that change from company to company?

Chris Caracci

Very few companies, even today, will have somebody in charge of the experience, the customer experience. Some of them do. The ones that are out ahead of the rest of the pack will have people devoted to that at a senior position. Typically, the organizations that are looking for my help do not have that. And that sits typically in the realm of human resources because so many of the elements that go into making great experiences for customers, so many of those pieces lie within human resources. It's about hiring the right people. It's about training them. It's about onboarding them to the culture of your company. It's about onboarding them to the things that are important and the values that your company espouses because that is all preparation for that individual's time in front of your customer. And then, you add on training around your service structure and your service framework. It has to be very intentional. So much of my work tends to be with the human resources department because they're the one managing the people processes. They're managing the leadership processes usually, and it's about impacting those because, without a quality leadership experience and a quality employee experience, you will never get to a quality customer experience.

Ken White

How has the pandemic affected customer experience in the way organizations view it?

Chris Caracci

Every organization, even Disney, has had to pivot and go online with much of what they do. Which meant, I think, thinking, like every organization thinking, how can we do this? How can we translate quality to a virtual environment? Which is difficult because you take away so many of the things that exist in a voice-to-voice interaction or a face-to-face interaction, and they become virtual, which makes them you lose some of that emotional connection that you want with your customers, and that's been difficult. And we've tried to do that because we've had to do that. I think Disney with their parks. The parks came back very fast. They closed in March of 2020. They were reopening again in the summer of 2020 after that break, that three or four-month break, and brought those face-to-face experiences back, even with masks and whatever other restrictions were in place. We knew that as a company, especially in our parks and resorts business, that people were yearning for that even after a few months of isolating at home and being afraid to go out in some cases and doing everything virtually, that there was still a yearning to get out there and to see people again and to have conversations again, even with a mask on whatever that looked like. But again, to have that contact because it's so critical. It's critical for Disney's parks and resorts business, obviously. And since then, they've remained open to some degree. The Disney parks around the world have adjusted how they've needed to adjust and kind of going up and down. But I think we're coming now in March of 2022. We're finally seeing the light out of this pandemic. It's becoming much more endemic to the population, and we're going to deal with it moving forward. But I think our ways forward as industries and businesses now is the freest it's been in two years time.

Ken White

So for an organization that is lacking in this area, what is step one for them?

Chris Caracci

Step one is always, and I do this with every client is, even somebody on that team has brought me in to help them. And that may be a senior leader, it may be somebody in the middle, but the first thing that I do is get all of the senior leaders in the room and say, this is what you've asked me to do. I can help you do this for you, but are all of you on board with doing this? Because if just one of you out of five or ten if one of you doesn't see value in this, then you've automatically handicapped our process. Because you're going to hold us back to whatever extent you have influence as a senior leader in this organization. So I need all of you, and I'm very frank about this with them. I need all of you to line up. And if you can't line up, then I need to ask you, do you really want me here? Do you need to wait until you think you can line up? I mean, I'll help you line up, but if you don't want to, I can't force you. I need you to come with me on this journey, and then I can help you. But if you don't, if senior leadership if executive leadership in any organization doesn't want to make improvement, no matter how much the middle of the organization is screaming for help, it'll never happen because the executive leaders have all the levers. They pull all the levers. And if they're not on board, it's not going to work.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Chris Caracci, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business, home of the MBA program offered in four formats, the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. If you're looking for a truly transformational experience, check out the William & Mary MBA program at wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Chris Caracci, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

Female Speaker

We'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks for listening to Leadership & Business.

More Podcast Episodes

 Michael Medline
Michael MedlineEpisode 171: March 8, 2022
Leading Transformational Change

Michael Medline

Episode 171: March 8, 2022

Leading Transformational Change

In 2017, when William & Mary graduate Michael Medline became CEO of Empire, he knew the organization was in need of major change. He’d been successful at PepsiCo Canada and as CEO of Canadian Tire but turning around Canada’s second largest grocery retailer, would be a significant challenge. Fast forward to 2022. Medline has executed one of the most effective turnarounds in Canadian retail. Empire and its key brands — Sobey’s, Safeway, IGA, and others — is stronger than ever and people have noticed. Medline was named CEO of the year by the Globe & Mail. He was also named Canada’s most admired CEO. He joins us to talk about leadership, company culture and transformational change.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | Amazon Music/Audible | Spotify | Google Podcasts

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What changes Michael has seen in students today compared to when he was a student himself
  • What was the state of Empire when Michael started in 2017
  • Which steps did Michael take to try to boost morale across the company
  • How long did it take to convince employees to adopt to the change
  • What was the primary goal of the Project Sunrise plan
  • How to deal with risk when trying to change company culture
  • How did the pandemic affect the plan to turn the store around
  • Why does Michael use sports language in business
  • Why is it important for a leader to be involved with their community
Transcript

Michael Medline: Leading Transformational Change TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Female Speaker

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, produced by the William & Mary School of Business and its MBA program, offered in four formats the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. For more information, visit wm.edu.

Ken White

Welcome to Leadership & Business. The podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. Sharing strategies, information, and insight that help you become a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. In 2017, when William & Mary graduate Michael Medline became CEO of Empire, he knew the organization was in need of major change. He'd been successful at PepsiCo Canada and as CEO of Canadian Tire. But turning around Canada's second-largest grocery retailer would be a significant challenge. Fast forward to 2022. Medline has executed one of the most effective turnarounds in Canadian retail. Empire and its key brands, Sobey's, Safeway, IGA, and others, is stronger than ever, and people have noticed. Medline was named CEO of the Year by the Globe & Mail. He was also named Canada's most admired CEO. He joins us to talk about leadership, company culture, and transformational change. Here's our conversation with the President and CEO of Empire, Michael Medline.

Ken White

Well, Michael, welcome. It's so great to see you in person. Welcome to William & Mary.

Michael Medline

Oh, I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me on the show today.

Ken White

Yeah. And you're going to be interacting with a lot of students. That's just going to be so fun.

Michael Medline

Yeah. I always look forward to that. And anything I can impart, but usually I'm learning from others. I'm going to try to impart some wisdom today if I can.

Ken White

When you see and interact with younger professionals, those at the beginning of their career, are they very different from you and your peers at that stage in your career?

Michael Medline

It's hard to compare that many years on, but I do find them more sophisticated, more mature, and that they can take on larger roles than I thought I could take on or some of my peers could at that stage. So I'm really impressed.

Ken White

Yeah. They think differently, but they can get it done.

Michael Medline

I think they're better, and they're just as hard-working and just as ambitious.

Ken White

Yeah, that's great. And I know you'll have a wonderful time meeting all the students. You're meeting the whole group undergrad all the way on up to the executive MBA.

Michael Medline

They're keeping me pretty busy, but I'm enjoying it.

Ken White

That's excellent. That's great. Well, we want to talk to you not only about your career but especially at Empire—some of the things that you've done. You arrived in 2017. What did you see when you first got there?

Michael Medline

I like to look forward, not backward, but in this case, I think there are some learnings from it. And what I saw was a company in total disarray, which you don't see very often. And these things happen. If you're a 115-year-old company, you're going to go through some good times and bad times. And I saw a crisis in leadership, low morale, very regional business, not we're big national company and acting like five different regions. So we lost our way. We didn't have numbers that I would usually associate with running a company. I asked when the weekly operating meeting was, and there were no operating meetings, never talked about brands, and had some very angry customers, especially in Western Canada. But other than that, everything was great.

Ken White

So was that an attraction for you?

Michael Medline

I'd always, in my heart, wanted to work for Empire Company because I knew a CEO there years before, and I knew that the Sobey family were great and they had a good culture. So I'd always kind of in back of my mind thought this would be a great place to work. I never thought of myself as a turnaround person, but I was looking for a job. And in fact, now I probably wouldn't take on anything that isn't a turnaround if I were ever to do anything again, which I probably won't because it was so exciting and used all the skills I'd learned here at business school and all the experiences that I had in my business career.

Ken White

Is retail something that's in your blood?

Michael Medline

It is now. I never thought of myself as a retailer, but I've been doing it for over 20 years now, so I guess it is. But I think retail is really broad. I think an airline is retail. I think in many occasions, banks are retail. So I have a big expansive version of it, not just a grocery store or sporting goods store.

Ken White

Yeah. So, where did you start? You get in, you see it, and you say, I've got to come up with a plan. Where do you begin?

Michael Medline

I've done a lot of work while I was in the interview stages because they were doing a search worldwide search. And what I did is I quietly traveled the country and went in stores and talked to teammates there and did a lot of reading. There's nothing more boring than reading investor call scripts from years before. And I dedicated myself to it. It was tough going, and so I had an idea of what to do, but we did have to. It took us some months to put together and only three months to put together a strategic plan we called Project Sunrise for the first three years to turn around the company. But you knew that wasn't going to take effect. You couldn't change the place right away. And the number one thing I wanted to do is boost morale. When you're at a company, and you're not doing well, you're embarrassed to work for it. Whether you're a cashier or a senior executive, you want to go to a Christmas dinner and be able to talk about what a great place you work for. And so, how do you boost morale quickly when you still don't have the results? And that was the biggest thing I had to take on, other than traveling around, talking, and putting together the plan.

Ken White

Yeah. How did you do that? Because morale is tough.

Michael Medline

Yeah.

Ken White

Yeah.

Michael Medline

I told them what the vision of the future was going to be. Where we're going to be five years from now, and how proud they were going to be and what they were going to do on the journey. I told them it wasn't their fault that we were unsuccessful and that they would be part of the journey to make it successful. And I used a phrase which I've used often talking to my teammates after that, I said, they're a diamond. They just need to be polished and buffed up a bit and then did some little crazy things like sponsored the Blue Jays or the national baseball team and put our logo on the outfield fence. And so when you see that, you go, okay, I guess my company is not going down for the count. And there's something to be proud of. Little things like that, but mostly just talking about the future and how great it was going to be and how they could be part of that.

Ken White

You have over 130,000 employees. What was your strategy, communication-wise, to get to reach everybody?

Michael Medline

Yeah, it was just over-communicate. You can always talk to the backstage employees more easily than you can than the front line. We have 1700 stores across the country. I can't get in all of them in any given year. But messages get around. So if senior management goes into a store in Alberta, in Calgary, everybody in Alberta knows that senior management's in the store. And if you then talk about it and send out a video or speak about how great the store is, everyone hears about it. So it's a thousand things. It's not just one thing. There's no silver bullet in these things.

Ken White

How quickly did people jump on board?

Michael Medline

Almost immediately. Almost immediately. I'm sure there were some doubters. Right. And we've seen this before. It's flavor of the month. This guy won't make it. But I was so ultra-confident in the place. And so they started responding right away. And we started getting results much sooner than I ever could have hoped. Some of them were very not everything you teach Dean at school or the other professors, some of things very crude at first because we didn't have an infrastructure. And so, I knew it would take six years to put an infrastructure that we'd be proud of in place. But I had some advice. Let's put the infrastructure in for five years, then go at it. You can't do that. You've got to start getting results, and your teammates and your customers, and your shareholders expect it.

Ken White

So project sunrise was three years?

Michael Medline

Three years long.

Ken White

What were you hoping? If there was one main goal. What might that have been?

Michael Medline

Unify the country have it run under one leadership team instead of five. We have four regions in the National Oversight Committee. They fought with each other. They had different pricing. Nothing was the same, including when I asked for what's our margin this month? Which region would you like to see?

Ken White

Probably somewhat convenient if you work in a region, but inconvenient for you, the leader.

Michael Medline

Yeah, I couldn't do it. And I had said when I interviewed I would not take the job on unless I had the support of the board and the Sobey family, the great Sobey family, to make it one company and to unite it. And they were 100% behind it. You can make way more change when you're in dire circumstances than you can when you're successful. And sometimes I worry now are we still the risk-takers we used to be when we were trying to turn the company around.

Ken White

Oh, that's a good point. Risk, I mean it can be frightening, not just for the CEO, but people on the team. What if we fail? How do you deal with that when that comes into play?

Michael Medline

Yeah. I knew I was going to get the job, but it was before I was announced, and the company came out with their results. And I remember where I was. I was standing in front of a drugstore, and it was freezing in Toronto that day. And I looked at results, and I called my wife, and I said, I hope I can do this because this was going down. We made, I think, $0.13 that quarter. And last quarter we made over $0.70 in the quarter. And there's a great cash flow business once you start pumping up. But we were going in the wrong direction. So were there times of doubt? Maybe a few dark nights? Not many. Not many. Was I confident in the team? I liked the culture. I like the values. And I thought we could do it because there was so much upside. I look at things, not sort of I go, wow, if we knew what our margin was, then we could really run this company. We could have operating meetings. Wouldn't it be great? If we had better structure and better teammates at the top, what a company this could be. So I always look at things optimistically.

Ken White

Yeah. But there's got to be those times where there's some self-doubt.

Michael Medline

I hope we're making the right call here, and you make decisions without perfect data, and you've got to make them. And at the beginning, I had some key teammates, the interim CFO, the head of HR CHRO, who is still there, and they helped, but it was a small team making a lot of key decisions, and that can be a little scary at times.

Ken White

We'll continue our conversation with Michael Medline in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If your organization is interested in retaining your best people, consider enrolling them in one of our MBA programs for working professionals. William & Mary's online MBA, part-time MBA, and executive MBA programs are designed for the professional who works full time. So both the employee and the organization benefit. Show your employees you care by investing in their growth. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary at wm.edu. Now back to our conversation with Michael Medline, President, and CEO of Empire.

Ken White

And then, after Project Sunrise, you moved into Project Horizon. What did that entail?

Michael Medline

We now were a national company. We're getting decent results. We're throwing off cash. We had the confidence. We had good teammates. But the infrastructure, especially in technology and data and in our store network, was not as strong. So it was a time to invest in the company. And now we're starting to reap those rewards. And this one, there wasn't a burning platform, so you had to get people excited about space productivity in the store or on-shelf availability or renovating stores. It wasn't a moment where you're really questioning whether the company could go on. It's how good the company could be. But we've had great results through Project Horizon, even though we were put off a little bit by some emergency measures during the pandemic, which put us behind, and the team was unbelievable catching back up after we went through the emergencies.

Ken White

Yeah, I actually took the words right out of my mouth. What about the pandemic? What did that do? Did it derail some things?

Michael Medline

I think that if we hadn't been a national company, didn't have the structure and processes and disciplines and people we had in place. It would have been a complete disaster. Instead, I got to tell you that I have far less of a role in the company now, which I'm proud to say, and that my teammates, from the stores to my executive teammates, came through, and I started to realize how important it was that we didn't have to be as centralized. We didn't have to have that top-down, that there were great ideas, especially at the beginning of pandemic, when no one knew anything right what to do. And we were getting ideas from everywhere, and so many were coming from the stores. And I said, okay, we got it now. I feel really good. And in fact, it made the team closer, and it polished their skills. If you could go through this, it really showed your mental in good times. No kidding. I mean, anyone can lead in good times, anyone. But when the chips are down, we saw that so many of our leaders stepped up.

Ken White

And you had some fun.

Michael Medline

Yeah. I mean, I don't like working out of a basement. I went back to the office as soon as I was legally allowed. But you know what? It was fun because everything I learned at school and, as I said earlier, everything that you're trained to do. Are you any good? Can you put it all in place? And that same test for any leader, not just CEOs, but not just in my company. I think many of our competitors did a great job. I think that CEOs across the world stepped up for each other to help when they could. So it really was a heartening event. Wouldn't want to do it again. And the team is a little tired.

Ken White

Yeah, no doubt.

Michael Medline

But they're coming back. But it tested you. So in a weird, sick way, it was somewhat fun because it challenged you.

Ken White

Sure. It's interesting in talking to you. You use the word teammate quite often. And when I look at the news releases and reports and your quotes, there's a lot of sports language. Teammates win, lose, offense, defense. Where does that come from?

Michael Medline

Well, I like sports. I liked playing them when I was younger, and I love watching them. And it unites my family because my kids are all big sports fans with me. But I do think that a lot of people can relate to sports. They can relate to the competition, to the fact that you have to have the back of your teammate. And I like the lexicon. I like the way to thinking of business is highly competitive, to beat your adversaries, and to succeed while playing within the rules and having values. And so I think I evoke it quite a bit, probably more than I even think I do when you mentioned that because I just write or say what I want to say. But then, if you put it together, I guess there are a lot of sports analogies.

Ken White

Well, it's competition, right? It makes sense.

Michael Medline

Yeah. And that is a way to unite the team, too. So we're the second-largest retailer in Canada. We really don't like the largest retailer.

Ken White

Of course.

Michael Medline

And I've not been very good at this. I've really not been helpful in terms of fostering a better relationship. And one of the ways to unite a team is to have a common adversary. I might have to tone it down because I think we're doing better. And I do have respect for the adversary.

Ken White

Sure.

Michael Medline

But it does unite a team to say, look, we're behind, and we got there's someone else that we have to go after. We have to be a better team.

Ken White

I assume you see a big shift in people's attitudes and the culture from when you arrived to now.

Michael Medline

Yeah, I do see a total shift in the attitude. I would say, though, I was very cautious about changing. I really didn't want to change the 115-year-old culture and values that have made the company so successful. And I think it's not right for one leader to impose on that or try to change it too much. So I really studied the culture and values and the people and then just sort of highlighted. I didn't think we were results-oriented enough. I didn't think we were competitive enough, but I used our current values. I didn't change the values. And I love the culture. I just think that we needed to lead the company better and have a better vision and strategy for the company. And to a change culture and values is probably a task that is not going to be successful and certainly will take too long. And so I just embraced the culture values and just highlighted them and stressed them in different ways.

Ken White

Yeah, well, that's a fine line, right? Because people could take it as criticism if it goes too far.

Michael Medline

Correct.

Ken White

Yeah.

Michael Medline

Not many companies are as successful as ours had been over a long period of time. There's some good things there.

Ken White

Yeah.

Michael Medline

Don't throw them out.

Ken White

Yeah. You do a lot of work in the community. You work for nonprofits. You're on boards. Why is that important for a CEO?

Michael Medline

Well, I think at a certain point when you're first in your career, you're working so hard and trying to learn. You don't have time to. If you do, you're a better person than I am. I didn't have time when I was early in my career, but I always tried to coach kids teams and do things like that as my kids were growing up. But then I just felt I enjoy it, first of all. And I felt that if I could add anything to those causes, that it was pretty well my duty to do so. And if I felt I wasn't adding anything, it wasn't really the cause. They were already good without me. And so, it was places where I thought I could add value. And I've learned a lot from it. Anytime you go out, and you meet other people, and you talk about brand, or you talk about how to treat your teammates, etcetera,  you're learning a lot. So I felt it was exposed me to other business leaders and other organizations in a good way. So I got something out of it as well.

Ken White

So what's ahead? What do you have planned for the next couple of years?

Michael Medline

Well, we are nowhere near perfect. We have a long way to go. But I like where we're going. I don't think we'll do another three-year plan. I think that's for turnarounds, in my opinion, that we are a much more mature company. But that doesn't mean we should be any less audacious. And that's my number one message I sent to the teams and to our board of directors. I'm worried, will we be able to take the risk in a smart way that we did before? Or do we just kind of rest on our laurels. And every single day, I ask myself, when I wake up, are you going to go for it? And can we make this company? The goal is to be the greatest retailer in Canada history and then the greatest company in Canada history. So just kind of sitting around and being happy with where we are is not going to do it, but that's what concerns me the most is that we become a bit complacent, and I'm being in my role now over five years, I can't become complacent, so I'm always trying to challenge myself and make sure that I'm as passionate about the business as I've ever been. I think I am. I think I'm more excited now because I wasn't a turnaround guy. Now I get to do the great things when you have a great infrastructure and a great team.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Michael Medline, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business, home to the MBA program offered in four formats the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. If your life and career are in need of a transformation, check out the William & Mary MBA program at wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Michael Medline, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

Female Speaker

We'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks for listening to Leadership & Business.

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 Patrice Lincoln
Patrice LincolnEpisode 170: February 16, 2022
The Hot Job Market

Patrice Lincoln

Episode 170: February 16, 2022

The Hot Job Market

If you're looking for a new job, now is the time to look. Due to a number of factors, we're experiencing the hottest job market in decades. Salaries are up, the number of openings across sectors and industries has increased, benefits are improving, and employers are becoming more flexible. The news is great if you're a job seeker. Patrice Lincoln is a career coach. She's the Director of Graduate Career Advising and Education at William & Mary's School of Business. She's on the front lines in the job search environment helping graduate business students land the right positions. She joins us to discuss our current hot job market, and how - if you're seeking a new opportunity - you can succeed.

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Patrice Lincoln: The Hot Job Market TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • How is the job market different this year than in years past
  • What sectors of the job market has The Great Recession affected
  • What is important to people who are seeking a new career
  • How have companies responded to employees' request for flexibility in the workplace
  • How has recruiting changed during the pandemic
  • When is a good time to seek a new role with a new organization
  • What steps should one take when looking to change industries
  • What qualities are employers looking for in potential candidates
Transcript

Ken White

Welcome to Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world, sharing strategies, information, and insight to help you become a more effective leader, communicator and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Well, if you're looking for a new job, now is the time to look. Due to a number of factors, we're experiencing the hottest job market in decades. Salaries are up, the number of openings across sectors and industries has increased, benefits are improving, and employers are becoming more flexible. The news is great if you're a job seeker. Patrice Lincoln is a career coach. She's the Director of Graduate Career Advising and Education at William & Mary's School of Business. She's on the front lines in the job search environment, helping graduate business students land the right positions. She joins us to discuss our current hot job market and how if you're seeking a new opportunity, you can succeed. Here's our conversation with career coach Patrice Lincoln.

Ken White

Patrice, thanks so very much for joining us. I know you are absolutely swamped right now. How has it been for you this academic year versus maybe some years past in terms of volume and activity?

Patrice Lincoln

Volume has been incredible. Students are just coming in one after the other. They all are coming in for different reasons, but it is busy in career management.

Ken White

So we hear and we're reading about this great job market. Is that what you're seeing and you're experiencing?

Patrice Lincoln

For sure. Right now we are actually 20% above where we were at this time last year. And then to put that into perspective, we are 16% above where we were pre-COVID in terms of full-time acceptances. And so we're seeing that companies are really pushing to get those students in early, signing them and having them sign that dotted line and securing their full time as well as internship opportunities.

Ken White

So 20% means that you've got more students that have jobs in their pockets while they're finishing up their degree than you did a few years ago.

Patrice Lincoln

For sure. Acceptance, yeah, for sure. So that's really good.

Ken White

We hear a lot about the great resignation. We've talked about it on the podcast. Is that real, and are you seeing it affecting jobs?

Patrice Lincoln

It is real, as you can probably see just by driving down the road, that a lot of that is in hospitality, restaurants and hotels. So a lot of that great resignation is coming from that. Not as hard hit in the white collar professionals, but it's still people over the pandemic really struggled because companies had laid people off due to the pandemic, and then those that were left were left with a bigger workload. So people are really starting to reassess what is important to them. One thing that is adding to the Great Resignation is the baby boomers are retiring. People that would have continued to work later are not going past retirement age. And then there are early retirees. They've just really decided this is not worth it. We can bow out. So that's leaving a big gap.

Ken White

Yeah. We've never seen anything quite like this, have we?

Patrice Lincoln

Never, never.

Ken White

When you said what's important, what is important to many professionals, whether they're younger, mid level or mid career, what seems to be important to people when they're looking at maybe leaving or seeking a new job or career?

Patrice Lincoln

I think one of the biggest things is flexibility. So people want to work hybrid or work from home, and especially those that have small children or caring for an elder. They really need that flexibility to work on their own terms, work the hours they need to work. So they are looking for more vacation time. One of the big things that companies are offering now that I'm seeing is just a bigger area of mental health awareness. And so mental health support for those workers that have been through the pandemic, people are just done. They're tired, they're burnt out. And so looking for companies that are offering that support, they're looking for higher wages. Why should I work for this company when I can work for this company for a significant amount of money with the flexibility, the adaptability? Another big thing that our current students are looking for is really that social impact and sustainability. That's been a huge trend over the past couple of years. And I've really never seen anything like it this year compared to this year where students are saying, I want to work for a company I believe in.

Ken White

Yeah. And when you're talking students, you're not necessarily talking 21 year olds. These are graduate students.

Patrice Lincoln

Graduate students, correct.

Ken White

Yeah, you're talking about 40s.

Patrice Lincoln

Absolutely. And it's important to the vast majority of them. They want to feel good about the company. They want to feel good about their leadership. They want to know that their company is doing good for the world, whether it's environment, whether it's equity and inclusion or just that corporate social responsibility.

Ken White

So you mentioned the importance of flexibility. Are companies and employers hearing that and doing something about it?

Patrice Lincoln

I think they are starting to hear it. So with the pandemic came a lot of hiring freezes. And so companies were not able to recruit or hire, which really helped cause that burnout with the people who are left. And so they really need to kind of retool how they go about recruiting people and the same benefits that were important two years ago or not even on the radar anymore.

Ken White

You mentioned how they recruit people. Has that changed the process?

Patrice Lincoln

So one of the things that has changed dramatically over the years is the applicant tracking system. So here is artificial intelligence helping us do our jobs better. And what it really is doing is it's preventing the candidates from meeting the recruiters. And so the recruiters really need to figure out how to get past that applicant tracking system because they're missing out on a huge majority of people that would be well suited for those jobs, but they're not making it through the word match algorithm that they have.

Ken White

Yeah. For those who don't know that, can you explain how that works? The word match?

Patrice Lincoln

Sure. So for most large companies, they're going to have something called the applicant tracking system, the ATS. And it's all done by artificial intelligence. So your resume goes in and gets parsed, and there are certain keywords that the hiring manager or recruiter selects as important. And if you don't have that word exactly on your resume, the artificial intelligence is not smart enough yet to figure out that a project manager is the same thing as having project management. And so because it's not 100% word match, you get passed over on that. And so there is a deficit in how many students or how many candidates are passing through that applicant tracking system. And so one way to counter that is I tell our students, please go back and do that tried and true networking. Really go back and meet with people within the company. Try to get your face and your name out there. That likability factor is huge. But when you have a hiring manager walking your resume down to HR versus the machine, saying good fit, not good fit. That makes the world a difference.

Ken White

In terms of and no one likes to network. I don't think right.

Patrice Lincoln

There's like 2% of the class will tell me they love it.

Ken White

It feels like of all the human beings I've met, most of them say I'd really rather not do that. Do you coach your clients when it comes to the systems to actually go back and write the resume so that it does match the job description?

Patrice Lincoln

Yes. We've tried to pick up some new tools. One of the newest tools we have is called Job Scan, and it does just that. It takes the name of the company and it tells the student or the candidate what applicant tracking system they're using and tips about that particular applicant tracking system. So that's a brand new tool for us. We haven't rolled it out fully, but it is pretty incredible in terms of making these small changes on your resume can get your foot in the door for this particular job description. That's going to take time for students to go back then and tailor every resume for every job they're doing. It's always age old quantity versus quality. Your first year, it's typically quality. You don't even know what you want yet. Recruiting season comes so early, throw it all out there, see what sticks. Second year, we really migrate over to that quality versus quantity. So spend the time on this particular job description. And so those quick applies. Quick applies. We're seeing less and less success with those because they're not tailoring their resumes to that particular job.

Ken White

We'll continue our conversation with Patrice Lincoln in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If your organization is interested in retaining your best people, consider enrolling them in one of our MBA programs for working professionals. William & Mary's online MBA, part-time MBA, and executive MBA programs are each designed for the professional who works full time. So both the employee and the organization benefit. Show your employees you care by investing in their growth. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary at wm.edu. Now back to our conversation with Patrice Lincoln, Director of Career Advising and Education at William & Mary's School of Business.

Ken White

You mentioned earlier people are tired, and there's no question in every industry people are wiped out. It's affecting how we innovate and how we work. If you're tired, is that a good time to seek a new role with a new organization?

Patrice Lincoln

Yes and no. I mean, the first thing you need to do is raise the white flag and say, I'm tired. What can we do here in my current position to make things better? And that's where that mental health support is coming in with a lot of companies just trying to retain their employees. And if they're feeling like they're not being cared for, they're not being heard, then the next thing you need to do is really spend that time getting your resume up to shape and getting excited about what type of work would you really like to do if you had your pick right now compared to where you were two years ago and you just needed a paycheck to survive.

Ken White

If one of our listeners wants to change industries, what's a good way to start that search? What are some of the steps they should take?

Patrice Lincoln

That is a great question. So really taking a look at what jobs are out there. There's so many different jobs out there now that just didn't exist pre-pandemic. We're seeing a lot on the equity and inclusion pace. As you know, the country has been struggling with that for the last several years, and we're seeing that employees want that in the company. And companies are now having Executive Director director level roles in corporate social responsibility, in diversity, inclusion, equity and belonging. So those are all things that are important if you're interested in going into something like that. We have a lot of students always coming in that want to go into that space. And years before it was there are no jobs that are out there right now out of school that you can get for something like that. Get into a company that you enjoy their mission, their vision in another function and work your way over. Well, you don't need to do that anymore. And we're also seeing a lot of our students who want to job shift. They're finding it easier because companies are looking for how do we do things differently? How do we do things that are out of the box? And the only way they're going to get there is by hiring people that have a diversity in thought and background. And so no longer is it somebody in finance. You have to have five years of finance to get in here. Companies are willing to train you as long as you come with the basic skills. They can train you on how to do it, but they can't train you on how to bring strategic thinking without bias. Right. So that's something that students are coming with.

Ken White

That's a bit of a shift

Patrice Lincoln

It's a big shift.

Ken White

Yeah. What other specifics are do you see employers seeking today? First of all, I assume they just want people. Number one, get me some people. But after that, what are they in general?

Patrice Lincoln

So according to the latest GMAC Recruiter survey, 73% of recruiters are looking for versatility in skills. So they're not really looking for those hard skills anymore, although those help if you have them. Communication is the number one. Since the pandemic we're seeing digital savviness. You have to be digital savvy or you're not going to survive in this world when your entire team is remote. They're also looking for employees who can be flexible. So not just the other way around, but employees being flexible. So you can work from home, but we're going to need you at least once a quarter in the office or we have a big event coming up. You're going to have to come in for that. And the final thing that they're really looking for is strategic thinking as I was saying, strategic thinking without bias, but not just that strategic thinking, but how hiring students or hiring candidates who can actually have an impact on that. So drive the great strategic thinking they're thinking about drive that home and really implement that rather than just thinking about it.

Ken White

The fact that we're looking for people to lead remote teams, that's not all new. I mean, we've had Salesforces all over the world and all over the country before, but in some respects, it is somewhat new. What do you see employers? What are their concerns in that arena when it comes to hiring? I mean, not all of us have experience leading remote teams.

Patrice Lincoln

Right. I think you're going to see companies coming up with specific training on how to lead a remote team. Some people work better remote than other people, and that's just a fact. And so having checks and balances in terms of not necessarily are you working eight to five? Because as we know, our days have shifted, especially with parents who are caring for children during the pandemic and all the kids who were home from school. But are they getting their jobs done? And so how do you check in with those individual people? So for me, I had a diverse team in terms of how they like to be checked in. So I would call one person on either FaceTime or the cell phone while I was having a ten minute power walk in between meetings. Other ones would want to be on Zoom. And so we do a quick Zoom check in. And so we just made sure we were staying connected during that whole pandemic. So it wasn't like they felt lost and didn't have a chance to ask questions. It's not like you can just pop into somebody's office if you have a question. And if you forget to ask them all the questions at that time, you poke your head back in. Well, now you have to actually call them back or reconnect with them or chat with them on Teams or whatever your instant messaging platform is.

Ken White

Yeah.

Patrice Lincoln

And so just understanding how each employee really wants to feel connected. And I think that goes a long way to I had to onboard two new employees, 100% remote, and that's a hard thing to introduce them to people outside of our department, people within the company. And so I really had to make a conscious effort on, hey, let's have a Zoom link with this group so that you can meet them because you don't necessarily have a lot of day to day overlap with them. But it's really nice to know people that you're working with. So when you do need them, it's not like a cold call.

Ken White

Yeah. And it's interesting how it is changing culture. Job searching, to me, is one of the worst things. It's just so difficult. It's on your mind when you're looking 24 hours a day. It's difficult. And now it is an exciting market, but the world is somewhat unknown. What advice do you share with people seeking right now to kind of get through the process and land that successful you know that opportunity?

Patrice Lincoln

That is a great question as well. I'd say having that resilience. And so you're hearing this is the best job market in 20 years. It doesn't mean that you're going to get hired in a week's time. You have to put the time and energy into your resume and so work with somebody on that. And what you think you are understanding because you're putting it down in bullets, somebody else might not pick up on it. And rather than have it be your job duties, what were your accomplishments? What had a big impact on the company's bottom line? Because that's what management is interested in is what kind of impact can you have? And then they're also looking for ways that you can address your leadership skills, ways that you can address your flexibility or adaptability or innovation. So we're talking about innovation. If you want to get into one of the tech companies, which is one of the big industries that's hiring like crazy, they want to see innovation and they want to know how can you scale it?

Ken White

So be smart and hang tough, though, right?

Patrice Lincoln

Be smart, hang tough, keep trying and network. I really can't say enough about networking. So if you find a company that you love. Reach out to people for informational interviews even if there's no connection, reach out to them and ask if you can have ten minutes of their time so that you can get a better understanding of what the company culture is like. And is it really a good fit for you?

Ken White

That's our conversation with Patrice Lincoln and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business, home to the MBA program offered in four formats, the full-time, the part-time, the online and the executive MBA. If your life or career is in need of a transformation, check out the William & Mary MBA program at wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Patrice Lincoln and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Megan Cunningham
Megan CunninghamEpisode 169: January 22, 2022
Brand Storytelling in 2022

Megan Cunningham

Episode 169: January 22, 2022

Brand Storytelling in 2022

Every aspect of business deals with continuous change, but one area has constantly evolved from the beginning: Marketing. The audience, tools, and channels change rapidly as marketing continues to grow in terms of complexity. It wasn’t that long ago that reaching your audience was as easy as placing an ad in the newspaper. But now, marketing is more sophisticated, strategic, and segmented than ever. And when done right, it’s tied to the organization’s mission and purpose. And while marketers work to manage the changes and opportunities in front of them, our guest says one element is critically important to successful marketing in the year ahead: Brand Storytelling. Megan Cunningham is the founder and CEO of Magnet Media, a creative studio that uses brand storytelling and data to drive business results for some of the top brands in the world. She says brand storytelling has the potential to do great things for marketers and the products, services, and organizations they represent.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • How long Magnet Media has been in the business of Brand Storytelling
  • Why Brand Storytelling is so important right now
  • What is the audience's role in brand storytelling
  • How important is length and quality when telling a brand story
  • What are the marketing trends for 2022
  • How should smaller organizations stay abreast of marketing trends
  • What role did the pandemic play in the further need for brand storytelling
Transcript

Megan Cunningham: Brand Storytelling in 2022 TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. This is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Well, every aspect of business deals with continuous change, but one area has constantly evolved from the beginning, marketing. The audience, tools, and channels change rapidly as marketing continues to grow in terms of complexity. It wasn't that long ago that reaching your audience was as easy as placing an ad in the newspaper. But now, marketing is more sophisticated, strategic, and segmented than ever. And when done right, it's tied to the organization's mission and purpose. And while marketers work to manage the changes and opportunities in front of them, our guest says one element is critically important to successful marketing in the year ahead—brand storytelling. Megan Cunningham is the founder and CEO of Magnet Media, a creative studio that uses brand storytelling and data to drive business results for some of the top brands in the world. She says brand storytelling has the potential to do great things for marketers and the products, services, and organizations they represent. Here's our conversation with the founder and CEO of Magnet Media, Megan Cunningham.

Ken White

Megan, great to see you. Thanks for joining us on the podcast.

Megan Cunningham

Ken, thanks so much for having me here this morning.

Ken White

I'm excited to talk with you. I've looked at Magnet Media. I've seen your background doing some really exciting things. For our listeners, tell us about Magnet Media and what it and you do.

Megan Cunningham

We are essentially the OG of brand storytelling. We just celebrated our 20th anniversary in business, and while it's been a lot of highs and lows over the last two decades, I really feel like brand storytelling is having a moment right now, and we're in a privileged position where we're growing at an ever-accelerating rate.

Ken White

Why is it having a moment? It's been around a long time. But it is being talked about now. Why? What's causing that?

Megan Cunningham

I think there's a number of dynamics, but I'll just focus on two. I think that when the pandemic hit, there was a real revelation at a lot of large enterprises that their supposed digital transformation that they felt they had already gone through was really in its first inning, and that having a website that they bought a bunch of Google AdWords to drive traffic to was not really being digitally transformed, that there were a lot of other opportunities for innovation that they hadn't tapped or hadn't taken seriously. And a lot of that, frankly, falls under the umbrella of brand storytelling from our perspective. The second is that I feel like Mission and Purpose, which have been kicked around the board room and discussed and debated for many years, are finally arriving as a not nice to have, but a must-have, and so there's been a lot of indicators in prior years, even on the global business level. Right. With Larry Fink's letter at BlackRock and conversations at Davos, and endless Ted talks, that mission and purpose is really a key driver of value in the business community. I still think that a lot of people, frankly, we're paying lip service to that or avoiding the topic altogether. And what the last two years has shown us is that that's a real mandate for attracting and retaining talent in addition to attracting and retaining customers.

Ken White

That's what I was going to ask the customers. Where does that audience fit in when it comes, and it's a tough question, I realize. But where does the audience fit in in terms of storytelling?

Megan Cunningham

I think it's like a tree falls in the woods if no one's heard it, even did it even fall. Similarly, what's the story told if no one's ever heard it or viewed it? It's an open question, existentially. So I think the audience is absolutely a key element to creating value in storytelling. And I think that there's been a misnomer for many years that either it's all about audience, and there is no actual real storytelling or craft there. Right. And that, I would say, as evidenced in the era of content farms where people were just sort of flooding the internet with articles and poorly written sort of blog posts to try to hijack search engine topics. Right. And drive traffic to their lame-looking microsite at its worst moment. At the same time, I think that what we found over the evolution of brand storytelling as it's become more strategic as it's become more thoughtful that you can now see branded content that rivals traditional media and entertainment. And that to me, is where the future lies, really aspiring to well-crafted stories that are created in partnership with your audience, cocreated even, and that resonate and are searched for and shared socially and celebrated instead of advertising in its traditional forum that is increasingly blocked and skipped and avoided.

Ken White

Do you think often about the length of the story? I know personally, I love to watch YouTube, and we've got 5 seconds, right. 5 seconds to hook the audience. And some campaigns do it so well. And I think, wow, what another hurdle in the storytelling realm. So do you think much about length?

Megan Cunningham

I think duration is interesting. Duration has been something that has been in some ways overthought if that makes sense. I do think that there is value in short-form content. I also think there's value in long-form content. And some of the most impactful brand stories are not just sort of little gifs or social posts, but they are full-length episodic content that may exist on YouTube that may be celebrated in Spotify as a podcast. Right. I mean, there's lots of ways to bring brand stories to life. And I think that, again, the original vision was like, oh, we have to kind of like adapt our story for this really short attention span audience. I think that sometimes works, but it's not the only way in which you can execute on-brand stories by any means.

Ken White

In terms of video production and the overall quality of the look. Does it need to look great? Can it be pedestrian looking like someone off the street shot it? Where does it need to lie?

Megan Cunningham

I think it depends. And I know that that's not the greatest of answers to any question, but it's the truth. I think that when you are engaging with authentic content created in partnership with influencers or brand ambassadors, people do want something that is real, feeling real. It feels like it was shot on a selfie Cam or that you're talking about this pet food while walking your dog or something that's really like in market, infield, and that feels raw and rough, almost like you're catching a weathercast like from the eye of the storm. Right. That's like you're really there. You're getting a first-hand experience. It's believable. It's trusted because it's witnessed by someone who is experiencing something themselves and telling you personal story about that experience. I think that there's on the other end of the spectrum of production values, real value in things that are glamorous and that are shot on a produced level. And I think that we've seen that work very successfully with drone cameras and celebrities and things that just excite the audience so much because they know that they're going to be taken on a journey and entertained and informed in a really dazzling way. And so I think both of those have meaning and usefulness in the sort of customer journey or employee journey if you're doing something that's aimed at new recruits, but it's not a one-size-fits-all if that makes sense.

Ken White

I find it interesting how sophisticated that the customer and the viewer have become. I mean, I worked in television a million years ago. No one knew how video worked. They had no idea. They were impressed with pretty much anything. Now we all shoot our own stuff. We have iPhones, and we know how to create videos. That's a sophisticated audience now that really looks at production quality, don't they?

Megan Cunningham

I do think that is the case. And I think that there's been an emergence in even Hollywood productions of complimentary parallel content series like, for example, you'll see something launched a series on HBO and almost always now they have a stay tuned for after the episode where we dialogue with the cast and the directors, and they will really do what normally pundits would have done, where they analyze the episode and separately you also have pundits that are frankly supported by the show. And HBO has commissioned original podcasts from The New York Times, and New York Times has been paid by HBO to create content now. So it's this whole merging of traditional media and independent commentators and audience members, all participating in, again, a cocreated way around the creation and celebration of a brand. And I think that's super exciting.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Megan Cunningham in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The full-time MBA program at William & Mary is one of the nation's best, according to The Princeton Review and its Best Business Schools for 2022. William & Mary's full-time MBA program was named Princeton Review's top ten in five different categories, including Best MBA Professors, Best MBA Students, Best Resources for Minority Students, Best MBA for Human Resources, and Most Family Friendly MBA Program. You can find the Princeton Review's Best Business Schools for 2022, where you buy your books. And you can learn more about the William & Mary MBA program by visiting wm.edu. Now back to our conversation with Megan Cunningham.

Ken White

So storytelling has been around always been important, very important today as we're going into the new year. What else do you see in terms of marketing? That we should keep our eyes open? What might we see?

Megan Cunningham

I mean, I feel like those that are winning are moving quickly and nimbly at this challenge of digital transformation and innovation. And they are not taking themselves too seriously. They are not sort of breaking their arm, patting themselves on the back for doing something that was sort of seen as innovative, maybe last year or the year before. I think that they're constantly evolving and committed to continuous improvement. And so underneath that sort of theme and strategy, I would say test and scale is the name of the game. It's taking a look at things like if you've been in the podcasting space and you feel like, wow, that was like a big breakthrough for us. We're now able as a brand to produce a podcast like so many of our clients have. Now let's take it to clubhouse. Let's make it a live recorded experience. Let's put it on replay there and really adapt as the audience is moving into new networks and environments. If you've been successful at events and gatherings, and it was a big transformation for you to go from live dinner parties and trade shows to virtual experiences that had similar dynamics. Think about where you could show up in the metaverse. And so I think just constantly moving forward and thinking about what's next, what's new, and what's next. That's the role that we play with brands at Magnet Media. And I'll say there is one thing that we come out with every year that is called the State of the Story Trends Report, and we drop that in various chapters now. It used to be once a year at annual trends. It's now sort of an ongoing quarterly release that we've structured based on the fact that things are changing at such a rapid pace that we want to keep people abreast of those changes.

Ken White

So if I'm a small business owner, if I'm a part of a small organization, my head just exploded as you're saying that how in the world can I possibly keep up with that? What advice do you give? Maybe smaller organizations who have to be in this realm, they have to be playing in the game but may not have the expertise or the people on board.

Megan Cunningham

I think the simplest thing you can do as a small business owner is put a mirror to your organization. And by that, I mean survey your customers and survey your team and really get a sense of where the puck is moving for them. What are they curious about? What's a change that they've made in their own consumption habits over the past 6 12 18 months? And ensure that or what are they thinking ahead about testing themselves? Are they increasing their podcast listenership and retiring their YouTube consumption? Whatever it is, that's sort of a change. I think knowing that from your own customer base and your own team is very vital as a data point, and then that to me gives you really like reading into the tea leaves that gives you the basis for your content strategy. You don't have to be everywhere by any means. In fact, one of my advisors once said to me this known mantra of you can be anywhere, but you can't be everywhere. Right. And I think that's very true when it comes to brand storytelling and posting and building community on these different channels.

Ken White

And we definitely see that, don't we? We see organizations trying to be everywhere. And if you're everywhere, nothing is effective. Right. When you go that route. Interesting. So taking it to that next level, thinking greater, thinking bigger, moving on. And as you said, being nimble, what else do you think we might see in terms of marketing and promotion in the new year?

Megan Cunningham

I think there's going to be continued development of real community on behalf of businesses. And I think that again, we've seen this already where there are sort of cherished gatherings in different sectors that people gravitate towards and look forward to, and they're more than just, oh yeah, I have to go to that annoying trade show, and it's going to be exhausting and whatever. They're actually looking forward to connecting with their friends to learning new things from fresh content. And I think that sort of a well-run experience is something that is at the foundation of a community. But that what we've learned is that a community is also ongoing, and you're providing opportunities for members of that community to connect with one another. Whether it be through setting up a Slack or a Reddit channel, or a standalone app providing that opportunity and reasons for people to connect with one another, that, to me, is a big asset that businesses can be developing and creating that will add to their value and their sustainability.

Ken White

What role did the pandemic play in the experience and in the community and our need for those?

Megan Cunningham

A huge one, probably the biggest one that we've seen, frankly, since the birth of the internet. I think that I've been interviewed repeatedly about sort of events and gatherings and sort of what's on the horizon. And I'll say there's really four reasons why we gather, whether it be on a personal level or on a professional level. And I think when it comes to marketing and business leaders, thinking about those four reasons of why people are coming together is really critical. I'll just quickly list them. It's exclusive access, unique experiences, social connection, and a solution to a challenge. And to me, the more you can kind of layer in those four value props into your experience or event, the better off you will be in terms of perceived value from the participants.

Ken White

So as we wrap up last question, people thinking about the new year, their brand, their stories, where they need to go, connecting with the customers. What last piece of advice do you have for them as we move into the new year?

Megan Cunningham

I think being intentional about your own objectives and sort of what value are you putting out in the world? What gift are you giving to your constituents, whether that be to your team, your investors, your customers? I think that, to me, is like a great place to start in terms of focus because it can be very overwhelming. And I think that is the case for all of us. We work with many of the world's leading brands, and it's a huge privilege. But I often hear that sort of like swirl and sort of chaos is cluttering people's thinking and decision making. It can be like analysis paralysis. So I do think that just thinking through as we have hopefully time to take a break over the coming weeks and months, thinking through what is your purpose and mission and how does that inform your choices? To me, that's a great way to start.

Ken White

That's our discussion with Megan Cunningham, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. William & Mary's MBA program is among the best in the nation. In Best Business Schools for 2022 by the Princeton Review, the William & Mary MBA program was named in the top ten list in five categories, including best Professors, Best Students, Best Resources for Minority Students, Most Family Friendly, and Best MBA for Human Resources. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary by visiting wm.edu. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Megan Cunningham, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Jennifer Engelhardt
Jennifer EngelhardtEpisode 168: January 5, 2022
Work Reimagined

Jennifer Engelhardt

Episode 168: January 5, 2022

Work Reimagined

As we’ve seen, the pandemic has changed just about everything; the way we live, the way we communicate, and no doubt the way we work. Transformational change is taking place at work and it will continue for the foreseeable future. And at the center of the changes: People. How can employers create a new work environment that attracts, retains, and satisfies the best people? One organization has its finger on the pulse of the evolution of work - EY. The global organization recently conducted a study that included over 1000 business leaders who shared their strategies to reimagine work. In addition, EY surveyed over 16,000 employees worldwide. The result: A report titled “Work Reimagined - How are companies redefining work with humans at the center.” Jennifer Engelhardt is a principal at EY. She joins us to discuss EY’s Work Reimagined report, and the implications and opportunities that come along with a new work environment.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn | Spotify

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • How the pandemic has shifted the influence employees have with their employers
  • How many employees prefer to work remotely versus those who wish to return to the office
  • What new behaviors leaders need to adopt
  • What EY’s report says about fairness and equity in the workplace
  • How employees and employers should think about workplace flexibility
  • What companies are looking for in collaboration tools
  • Why employers should focus on wellness for their employees
  • How employees feel workplace culture has improved after the pandemic
  • Do employees want to restart business travel
  • What are the major takeaways from EY’s report
Transcript

Jennifer Engelhardt: Work Reimagined TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business. The podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Well, as we've seen, the pandemic has changed just about everything, the way we live, the way we communicate, and no doubt the way we work. Transformational change is taking place at work, and it will continue for the foreseeable future and at the center of the changes people. How can employers create a new work environment that attracts, retains, and satisfies the best people? Well, one organization has its finger on the pulse of the evolution of work EY. The global organization recently conducted a study that included over 1000 business leaders who shared their strategies to reimagine work. In addition, EY surveyed over 16000 employees worldwide. The result, a report titled Work Reimagined, how are companies redefining work with humans at the center. Jennifer Engelhardt is a principal at EY. She joins us to discuss EY's Work Reimagined report and the implications and opportunities that come along with a new work environment. Here's our conversation with Jennifer Engelhardt.

Ken White

Jennifer, nice to see you. Thanks very much for taking time with us.

Jennifer Engelhardt

Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Ken White

And you taught a class this morning. How was that?

Jennifer Engelhardt

I did. I love being in front of the students and just seeing how resilient they are with everything that's going on and just hearing their feedback and fresh voices and perspectives. So it was great.

Ken White

When you meet William & Mary students, you kind of think future is going to be okay.

Jennifer Engelhardt

Yeah, you do. You do, indeed.

Ken White

Yeah. It's fun to be around them. No doubt. Thanks very much for sharing EY's report; work Reimagine Employer Survey 2021. And I like the subtitle how our companies redefining work with humans at the center. This is different from other reports like this because it's very people-centered. I assume that was very intentional.

Jennifer Engelhardt

Yes, talent is, I think historically, may not have been the most nurtured asset of an organization, but that shift is definitely happening. And it's great to see.

Ken White

Are you seeing a shift in terms of the influence employees have with their employers? Now that through the pandemic?

Jennifer Engelhardt

Absolutely. And I was just talking to the students about just how the role of the employee and the employer has changed. When our grandparents went to work, they would go to work, show up, clock out, and then go home and be done. And now we expect so much more of our employers. We want them to. Students are coming out of school saying, I want to work for a carbon-neutral company. I want to work for a company where the board looks like my graduating class. I want to work for a company where my leaders are transparent about their promotion decisions and espouse my values, and have a focus on wellness, not just physical wellness, but emotional wellness, financial wellness. So the role of the employer has changed quite a bit, and that change has been accelerated, I think, and compounded by everything that's happening with social justice and with the political landscape and obviously with the pandemic.

Ken White

Yeah. No question in the report talks a little bit about this. Are employers on the same page as employees in general?

Jennifer Engelhardt

It varies so much by different dimensions. The survey talks about where are the biggest disconnects, and I think the survey shows three personas, really. One is the people who want to stay remote 100% remote, which is a small number; I think it's around 7%. We have about, I think, 20% or so who want to be back in the office full time. And then the balance is what we call this hybrid hopeful. And what's interesting is that people want flexibility, not just in terms of where they work, but even more so in when they work. As a parent myself, just having to tutor my kids all last year, and still, we need that flexibility. And people are demanding that some companies are saying, come back or else, and people are saying, see you. So it's something that trend is, I think if you've heard the term with a great resignation.

Ken White

Absolutely.

Jennifer Engelhardt

Yeah. So that's definitely a phenomenon that's been a byproduct of the pandemic.

Ken White

It's a totally different landscape. Yeah, no question. Flexibility does seem to be the key. But leadership is also throughout the report and how leaders need to take on some new behaviors, such as what moving forward?

Jennifer Engelhardt

Yeah. I think historically; they've been called soft skills. I don't like that term. I call them behavioral competencies. So the ability to DENI space, the ability to create an inclusive culture, the ability to be agile and react to new technology. If you're the CIO, what new technologies, all these technologies being brought up so fast, which ones do we want to integrate and build into our platform? So yeah, I think it's changing very much. And there's a lot of that's happening in that space.

Ken White

Fairness and equity seems to be a big umbrella, sort of the umbrella over all of this. How do we make all of these changes moving forward? And be fair, what are some of the things you saw in the collection of the data and in the report about fairness and equity and what companies can do?

Jennifer Engelhardt

Yeah. It's interesting. So when we look at equity, we're looking at more and more at diverse segments. And historically, the focus has been primarily on gender and race, and ethnicity. Now we're looking at things like diversibilities, military status. We're finding that there's actually a lot of unconscious bias in job postings. I had a friend come back from Afghanistan with amazing experience. These adaptive skills, things like being able to function very well under pressure, being able to manage conflict. These adaptive skills are much more important, and experience moving tons of material around the Middle East and managing multimillion-dollar budgets. And he says, I can't find a job I'm qualified for. So working with clients to reduce bias in job postings and all along, the hire to retire, schedule, or cycle. But I do think that one of the things that's really notable is that the focus on EQ versus IQ because if you don't have the correct mindset and you don't come across as an inclusive leader, if you're not transparent if you don't really hold your company's values, show that publicly and react in a certain way that blends with the values of your organization. People say this is not authentic.

Ken White

Yeah.

Jennifer Engelhardt

If you say you're a diverse and inclusive organization, but your board is all white men. No one's going to believe you.

Ken White

So we could see some very different leaders moving forward.

Jennifer Engelhardt

Absolutely.

Ken White

I think the report is just so interesting, and it breaks down into various segments that EY has looked at, and one of them is addressing the desire for flexibility in the new normal. And we talked about that just a little bit. But what does flexibility entail when employees and employers are thinking about that term?

Jennifer Engelhardt

I think it's where they work and when they work. And so we're seeing a lot of I had a client, a regional bank located in Minneapolis right before the pandemic. They were doing a location strategy to decide if they wanted to open another regional headquarters in Austin or Atlanta. And since then, they have decided not to do it at all because the thing that the pandemic has done is it's accelerated this transformation of the talent value chain. What we thought was going to happen in ten years has happened in ten months. And for the first time in human history, geography is no longer the primary driver of where people work. Your next best employee might be in Bangalore or Liverpool. So we're seeing where people work and when they work. So on the real estate point, you can see it reflected in the corporate real estate market. Right. There's so many organizations who are moving out, and there's definitely been a lot of visibility and focus on that in the markets, but just reconfiguring office spaces for safety, having collaborative spaces, downsizing, and then people at home, they want that flexibility in terms of giving me the right set up so that I can look professional online so that I can have my Internet compensated. And then when they work. So with caregivers, child caregivers, elder care, people need that flexibility in when they work. So they're looking at flexibility on those two fronts.

Ken White

Yeah. You sort of touched on one of the segments, the approach to workplace safety and real estate. So it looks like the redesign of office is happening and will continue to happen.

Jennifer Engelhardt

Yes, especially with the Biden administration and the mandate around vaccination or testing. So we are working with a lot of our clients in that space right now on how best to respond to that.

Ken White

Interesting.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Jennifer Engelhardt in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The great resignation continues as record numbers of people are leaving their jobs. Gallup reports almost half of all professionals in the U.S. Have their eyes on other opportunities. Well, if your company or organization is interested in retaining your best people, consider enrolling them in one of our MBA programs for working professionals. William & Mary's, part-time MBA, online MBA, and executive MBA programs are all designed for the professional who works full-time. So the employee and the organization both benefit from the experience. Employees want to feel supported by their employers. Show them your organization cares by investing in their growth. Check out the MBA programs at William & Mary by visiting wm.edu. Now back to our conversation with Jennifer Engelhardt.

Ken White

And then there's another piece, the need for enhanced digital tools and technology that you sort of touched on a little bit. Collaboration tools seem to be sort of at the head of that.

Jennifer Engelhardt

Yes.

Ken White

In terms of what are companies looking for?

Jennifer Engelhardt

They want ways that they can share documents in the consulting space. How do we share documents with our clients in a secure way? They want collaboration tools that allow for the ease of use. There's lots of different maturity in terms of skills and proficiency levels and using the different tools. Obviously, they want reliability in the tools the whole home set up that you have to have now with all the cameras and things like that, especially if you are presenting at a conference and we're doing all kinds of conferences online now. So there's a whole host of different infrastructure that you need in that space.

Ken White

You just can't open the blinds and hope it's sunny outside. Right.

Jennifer Engelhardt

Exactly.

Ken White

Yeah. It doesn't work. I love the part future of work. Remote hybrid work is here to stay. I know there are people trying to fight it, but it's here to stay.

Jennifer Engelhardt

It is here to stay. Yeah. And I think it also talks about the concept of work as being a place or an activity. And I think how many months are we in now? Almost two years post COVID, we've proven that our productivity, we can do work remotely. We have proven that. I think at the beginning of COVID, there was a lot of focus on let's look at productivity metrics, and now that the world has, we're still building shampoo bottles and curing diseases and doing everything else that we always did in a different way. We have shown that we can do that. So I don't think there's any going back in that regard.

Ken White

There's an interesting video that EY's put together, just a 1-minute video on YouTube that sort of summarizes the study. And there was an interesting quote from an employee saying that I'm not sure when my day begins or when my day ends because I'm just working from home and working constantly. Is that something employers need to be concerned about?

Jennifer Engelhardt

Yes.

Ken White

And what can they do?

Jennifer Engelhardt

There's been a tremendous focus on wellness, and I have a friend who's a nurse, and I check in on her regularly for obvious reasons. But one of the things that surprised me a bit, she said, forget the COVID stuff, not forget it. But what's really disturbing is the attempted suicides. And I think if you can even say this that COVID has a silver lining, it's been destigmatization of mental illness. And at EY, for example, we have focus on emotional, physical, and financial wellness and having people speak up. Even on our internal calls. People they ask leaders to come forward and tell their stories, talk about everyone has struggled with we all have life events, and everyone is struggling having care available, having therapists available. We have unlimited vacation now at EY. So employers really are responding to that. And because employees are demanding that the well-being of their employees, we are at the nexus of huge, tragic events, with social justice, with the pandemic, with the political and sociopolitical environment. It's a tough time to be alive right now.

Ken White

Yeah.

Jennifer Engelhardt

And so, having mental health and mental illness as a focus area is something that's very good to see.

Ken White

Right before we started recording, you and I were talking about a completely different subject. And the bottom line was we can talk about mental illness now if there is a silver lining, and it's okay to talk about that. And then when you do, you find out there's some colleagues who have been in the same boat that you've been trying to paddle the whole time.

Jennifer Engelhardt

Yeah. And it's fact that EQ versus IQ, the ability to empathize, and the ability to have a shared purpose and purpose being the new currency. I've heard that investors want to work for to invest in companies that espouse their values, supply relationship management, having supplier diversity. I can't tell you how many RFPs we get these days that ask us if we're a minority-owned business, for example. So it's good to see that while some of the events have not been pleasant, it's enacting change that needs to happen.

Ken White

Some of the quotes and some of the interesting, I think pieces of this report talk about culture within organizations and how some employees and employers feel the culture has gotten better because of the pandemic and other events. Is that what you're hearing?

Jennifer Engelhardt

In many regards, yes. I think we are looking at culture, and I think skeptics who think that culture is kind of the soft and fuzzy thing we're really showing how it is. I look at culture as being a collection of behaviors and mindset. So if you want to be an inclusive leader, for example, we work with different tools that encourage behavior nudges we call them. And I'll give you a quick example. We used a tool that said, every morning on your smartphone, it would come up with some quote or some statistic about the benefits of an inclusive culture. And it says today; I want you to reach out to somebody in a diverse segment who you haven't talked to in three months. Will you do it? And you have to click on yes. And then at the end of the day, it comes up, and it says, Did you do it and to participate? We actually did this for our partners in Asia Pack, and we've done it with several clients as well. We had 92% participation rate. Of course, we had different very type-A folks competing. And once you throw some competition in there, everyone participates. But if you look at culture as being a collection of behaviors and mindsets that then if we can make people do these little actions day after day and give them ideas of how to be inclusive, then it becomes part of the ways of working and ways of working leads to culture. So we're seeing a lot more. We're seeing that one it's actionable, and we're also seeing that it's measurable. So we're seeing things like we've always had engagement surveys, but really taking to heart the feedback from those surveys and reacting to it because data that's not reacted to is really not valuable—so making sure that the data that we collect and the social listing that we do with AI predictive analytics, we can really start to take that unstructured data and make sense of it and take action based on what we're finding.

Ken White

The last piece we haven't talked about in the report is restarting business travel. People want to travel somewhat.

Jennifer Engelhardt

Yes.

Ken White

Yeah. Is that surprising to you?

Jennifer Engelhardt

Not so much. I think people miss. Regardless of whether you're a hybrid or remote or an office person, people miss that connection, and you're starting to hear terms that would have surprised us five years ago having on-sites versus offsite meetings. So I think travel will continue to increase, but I think it's going to be much more limited. I was talking to a colleague who said. I cannot believe how much time we spent before in airports when we can work just as well the way we are. But there's nothing that human connection. You can't get that on a Zoom call. It's better than on just a conference call, but it's still not the same as being able to sit across the table from someone.

Ken White

So when someone looks at the report, when you look at the report, what's the major takeaway? What should people be thinking about as we move forward?

Jennifer Engelhardt

I think that we're still in a time of tremendous change. I think that most of the changes that are happening, even though they've been caused by very unfortunate events. I love that we call it the radical transformation of the talent industry, and I think these changes are all for the good. I think that we have a lot of work to do. But I think that in the end, once we get this figured out and nobody hasn't figured out yet, there's no optimal mix. I know people who go into the office, and no one's there, and it has the reverse effect it's a ghost town. I hate this place. If you're in the office two days a week, how do you make sure that your colleagues are in the office on those two days a week? So there's still a lot of strategy that needs to be determined. And as we continue to progress along, as we continue to progress and eventually get COVID behind us, it will be very interesting to see where we land in terms of how we work. And I think it's going to be very different than before the pandemic started.

Ken White

That's our discussion with Jennifer Engelhardt, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If your company or organization is interested in retaining your best people, consider enrolling them in one of our MBA programs for working professionals. William & Mary's part-time MBA, online MBA, and executive MBA programs are all designed for the professional who works full time. So both the employee and the organization benefit from the experience. Employees want to feel supported by their employers. Show them you care by investing in their growth. Check out the MBA programs at William & Mary by visiting wm.edu. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding our podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Jennifer Engelhardt, and thanks to for joining us. I'm Ken White, wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Kelly Crace & David Long
Kelly Crace & David LongEpisode 167: December 21 , 2021
Flourishing Through Life's Transitions

Kelly Crace & David Long

Episode 167: December 21 , 2021

Flourishing Through Life's Transitions

For those who’ve spent years in the military, or intelligence community, transitioning to the private sector (or any sector) can be daunting. That’s why William & Mary, and its Center for Military Transition has created a unique two-week on campus program to be held in June called Flourishing Through Life’s Transitions. Designed to be a transformational experience, the program will train veterans and members of the intelligence community to transition to civilian positions while flourishing in their lives and careers. It’s a transition program like no other. Two of the program’s faculty leaders join us today to talk about this unique program. Dr. Kelly Crace is the Director of the Center for Mindfulness and Authentic Excellence at William & Mary. David Long is a veteran and professor at the William & Mary School of Business where he teaches organizational behavior. They join us to discuss flourishing through life’s transitions, what makes the program special, and how it will prepare each participant to be successful during the transition and beyond.

Apply for the Flourishing Through Life Transitions certificate

More information about the program

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What is the concept of flourishing
  • What does flourishing look like for each individual
  • Why having a shared social reality like a military background helps individuals flourish in groups
  • What are some objectives of the Flourishing Through Life's Transitions workshop
  • The importance of finding purpose in one's transition
  • What makes this transition program different
  • What the difference is between a career path and a career portfolio
  • What question should military personnel ask themselves before signing up for the program
Transcript

Kelly Crace & David Long: Flourishing Through Life's Transitions TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. This is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Well, for those who've spent years in the military or intelligence community, transitioning to the private sector or any sector can be daunting. That's why William & Mary and its Center for Military Transition has created a unique two-week on-campus program to be held in June called Flourishing Through Life's Transitions. Designed to be a transformational experience, the program will train veterans and members of the intelligence community to transition to civilian positions while flourishing in their lives and careers. It's a transition program like no other. Two of the program's faculty leaders join us today to talk about this unique program. Dr. Kelly Crace is the Director of the Center for Mindfulness and Authentic Excellence at William & Mary. David Long is a veteran and professor at the William & Mary School of Business, where he teaches organizational behavior. They join us to discuss flourishing through life's transitions, what makes the program special, and how it will prepare each participant to be successful during the transition and beyond. Here's our conversation with Kelly Crace and David Long.

Ken White

Kelly, David, welcome. Thanks for joining us. You both have been on the podcast before. Nice to see you again. Thanks for being here.

Kelly Crace

Thanks, Ken. It's good being here.

David Long

Thanks for having us.

Ken White

Kelly, we'll start with you. Flourishing for those who subscribe to the podcast, they've heard of it. You've been here. But for those who haven't, how do you explain and describe the concept of flourishing?

Kelly Crace

There are so many wide and varied definitions of flourishing these days. But in our work around our research and both our application of thinking about flourishing, it's this deeper level of effectiveness. It's kind of taking well-being and wellness to this higher level of more effective productivity, fulfillment, and resilience. It's not looking for a perfect level of it, but it's looking for a more consistent, deeper level of productivity, fulfillment, and resilience.

Ken White

Now, in the program that you'll be offering this summer, you're spending quite a bit of time on flourishing as an individual. What are you looking for in the program?

Kelly Crace

So flourishing looks different for every individual, and especially when you bring those three variables in. In terms of what does productivity look like for me, I think the word that's most characteristic is what is optimal productivity, what is optimal fulfillment, and resilience that looks different for everyone. As you kind of explore this further, it has to be very individualized. We've learned a lot through our research as to things that can predict flourishing. But when you look at the pathway and the journey of that and what that process looks like for every individual, it's a little different, and so we want to honor that individuality. We want to bring people in as a group. We find that doing it in a collective with other people. It enhances that sense of understanding what flourishing looks like for me, but it needs to be personalized and individualized enough to where they feel like this connects to me. This is not a general self-help book that is generally applicable. It's designed to be something that's personalized and very specific to them.

Ken White

And so, while it's individualized, there is the group. What does it mean to you to have the group with similar backgrounds transitioning from the military or from the intelligence community? How does that affect it?

Kelly Crace

Having that shared social reality is a form of support that really is helpful when we're doing hard personal work. This is the work of flourishing. Flourishing is not a feeling. It's a mindset, and it's a mindset that requires work. And we all know that we do hard work better when we feel supported around us, and support can be both challenge and affirmation. It can be. When do I know this person needs encouraging? And when do I know this person needs to be challenged and coming from a shared social reality, like the military or like the intelligence services. That is one thing that has done very well in terms of providing that right blend of challenge and support to really grow through something that, at first glance, looks impossible to me. I don't see how I'll ever be able to do that. And yet, they find themselves looking back and seeing just how they did that. I'm when they look back. Other people are around them. It's not just them by themselves. And that's why we try to do it as a group.

Ken White

So that first week, what are some of the objectives that you have in store for the participants?

Kelly Crace

So we've learned in our research that a lot of this mindset of flourishing actually involves paradigm-shifting. It's taking away from our just natural way of thinking. We're kind of challenging some of the platitudes that exist in our society and in our world as to what leads to success or what leads to flourishing and really looking and taking some things that we have learned truly predict flourishing and applying them to their lives. And what that basically involves is paradigm-shifting, thinking differently about values, thinking differently about stress, thinking differently about fear. It's about building from the strength that is already their foundation of where they're coming from. But the important issue in all of this, Ken, is transitions are stressful. Even the best of transitions. The best of change is still seen as stressful because our body processes change as I'm leaving something. So you experience that as loss and what I'm going to is uncertain. And I experience that as fear. And so, how do we manage this stressful experience in an optimal way? So for us, we're going to take different paradigm shifts that move them toward the work of flourishing, and they'll end up with an action plan. We call it dynamic blueprinting, where each of them will end up with a blueprint print that has their mental training program that's designed for them individually. And that's for individual as a person. And then they move into the second week with you and David, in terms of how does this compare to my professional identity? How do I apply this to my professional identity working in the business world?

Ken White

David, you transitioned. Did those terms sound familiar, right? Uncertainty and fear.

David Long

Absolutely, yeah. And that's kind of the benchmark of that major transition is the uncertainty and the fear. I was in Florida this past weekend, and I was at a big military ceremony with some friends that I've known for 25 years. I was talking to one of the senior wing commanders who's going to be retiring at the end of next year, and I was talking to him about that transition. And I said to him, I said, what are you looking for? What are your goals here as you go through this transition? And he said I don't know what it looks like. I just know I want to find something with purpose. I said, okay, I completely understand that. And that, to me, has a lot to do with what this program is about. It's helping people find purpose, whether it be in their personal life and flourishing in their personal life, in that transition, or in their professional life in that transition, and how to flourish in that aspect, too. And that's really what the second week does. It builds on what Kelly has introduced in the first week and that personal aspect of it into the professional aspect of it.

Ken White

So to break down that week, too, the professional, I'm a participant. I don't even know where I'm going or what I want to do. So what will I learn in that second week?

David Long

Right. And Kelly hit the nail on the head with the paradigm shift and thinking about things differently. So if you think about a professional life, you can really break it down into five different components. There's the job you do. And that's the first pillar, the second part of the relationships you have in the workplace and in your professional life. The third is in your leadership and your ability to be a good communicator and to lead other people. The fourth is teams. In your professional life, you work in teams. You're put on teams, often voluntarily or involuntarily, and you need to find a way to work effectively in those teams. And the fifth pillar really is more of an umbrella term, which is career. And so, If you think about the sub-components of your job and your teams and your relationships, they all kind of work into a greater career. And so, for example, in the first of those pillars, the job aspect, we call it the craft. What our research shows is that people who flourish in their craft find meaning. And this is what my friend was talking about when he said purpose. What is it about a job that's meaningful and the things the antecedents of meaningful crafts are things like having variety in what you do, not feeling stuck and doing the same routine every day, having differences and variety across different things, different experiences throughout your job? Second part is something called identity. Identity is where you have identity with your work so that you can look at your work and say, there, I did that. That's something that I can see from beginning to end a finished product. A lot of times, we find ourselves in jobs where we're contributing a piece of it. But we never see the total and so finding identity. A third thing is significance if you think that your work contributes significantly, not necessarily to yourself but to others. If you're making an impact on someone else, that's another way that we find meaningfulness and flourishing in the craft. And so in this second week, that first day, we focus on the craft, and it culminates with the transitioning students, the students going through the transition, getting to spend time locally at one of our alumni's workplaces. And it happens to be a brewery. So they'll get to share a pint and hear about how somebody who graduated from here found flourishing through opening a brewery and really applying the components of a flourishing craft. Things like meaningfulness and making beer. We'll hear a lot about hops and barley, but we'll also talk about customers and impact and coming full circle on a craft that's flourishing. That's kind of like the first day they'll get to learn about it and then see it applied in the workplace.

Ken White

Those elements, the identity, the significance, that meaningful component, in your opinion, most people in the military feel that? Don't? Does it depend on the position?

David Long

Yeah, I think let's go back to something we learned from week one is about the paradigm shift. Some people may know it, but they may not understand exactly what it means. And so thinking about it differently, thinking about it, as it's saying like, hey, I'm looking for a job, and I need a job to provide certain things for me. It can be, hey, I'm looking for a job, and I want this job to have purpose and meaningfulness, and I get it through these things. This is the path to get that. It's a lot different than just the means to an end. It's more of a journey along that path to provide those things that we find are so important to people.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Kelly Crace and David Long in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The great resignation continues as record numbers of people are leaving their jobs. Gallup reports almost half of all professionals in the U.S. Have their eyes on other opportunities. Well, if your company or organization is interested in retaining your best people, consider enrolling them in one of our MBA programs for working professionals. William & Mary's part-time MBA, online MBA, and executive MBA programs are all designed for the professional who works full time. So both the employee and the organization benefit from the experience employees want to feel supported by their employers. Show them your organization cares by investing in their growth. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary by visiting wm.edu. Now back to our conversation with Kelly, Crace, and David Long.

Ken White

Now you've gone through some transition programs, and Kelly, you've taught in somewhat makes this different? The one that's being put together for William & Mary?

David Long

Yeah, I'll take it first. So I have gone through the transitioning programs before, and they're effective at the blocking and tackling much more of the basic skills that you may need. Here's how to write a resume. Here's how to land a job, and this can be extremely invaluable. This is a much deeper level of understanding. This is much more of a requires some introspection. It also requires you to have a little bit of a growth mindset because you're going to have to get uncomfortable. You're going to have to learn some things that weren't necessarily intuitive to you and to then think about how you're going to apply those things so that you can thrive. And so, it does force you to learn some new things and step outside of your comfort zone a little bit. But that can be extremely rewarding to people. And it's just different than the typical transitioning programs that we see offered.

Ken White

Yeah. Kelly, what do you think regarding those you've seen?

Kelly Crace

I would echo what David said, but also, I think for me, one of the things that makes it distinctive is there is an assumption of strength. We're taking a very positive approach from this. There are oftentimes transition workshops, and seminars can be based on an assumption that's more remedial, implying that there's deficits that need to be corrected. We're taking the opposite approach that the career they have had so far that is moving them into this next chapter in their life has built strength, has built a foundation that we can then use to take them to a deeper level. So it is less kind of remedial, less surface level, and more advanced. We're not talking about resilience. We're talking about advanced resilience. We're not talking about various platitudes that people here to make us feel good. This is about moving people from emotions-centered habit-focused kind of approach to a value-centered healthy-focused approach, and that takes work because our own neurology and the culture around us can move us in directions that actually lead us astray. Well, we're taking the evidence-informed approach of, well, what have we learned about consistent flourishers, the ones that do it at a deeper level and more consistent level. What have they taught us? And what can we predict from that? And then how do we apply those strategies in a more personalized way? And frankly, we've just learned that there are no natural-born flourishers people that flourish work at it. So what is that work, and we get in for two weeks of hard work. The good thing that we know about this group of individuals coming in, they're no stranger to hard work. So we're going to take that platform and that foundation and build on it.

Ken White

All of us agree that the transferable skills these folks have because we see it. We see it in the business school. We see it at the University. So to me, I find it so fascinating that some people don't see that as a positive. It's so evident to us when we see our military students walk in the door. It's like, wow, look what you've done and look what you can do. But it is David, isn't it speaking another language practically? It's like you have to be bilingual.

David Long

Yeah, it is. It is a different language. And sometimes there's those language barriers that don't allow the proper communication to flow as they go through that transition because they really have known one way to speak, and the language is often different in the different context. One of the things that we focus on is building strength across mind and body can be very important in your personal life and in your professional life. The two things that we do, especially in the second week, is focus on relationships and building deeper connections. And how if you have deeper connections in the workplace, not only is it better for your professional life, it's better for your own health, your own health, and wellness. Right. We know that having social connections, having closeness with others can be good for destressing. It can be good for having energy. It can be good for your professional life. It can really help you get along and get ahead in the workplace. And so there's a mutual beneficial aspect of this when you combine the personal and the professional side through flourishing. The other thing is, you mentioned all the different experiences that people who are transitioning bring into—we kind of cap this with the career aspect, that pillar of professional life. But we talk about career, not as a career path but a career portfolio. And when you start to understand the experiences that people in the military and in the intelligence community and government have and how that's part of their portfolio and a portfolio of experiences is extremely invaluable to prospective employers. They want people who think differently who look at problems differently, not just with a unidimensional mindset, but come from it different perspectives. And so when you think about all your experiences, not as a path I've been on, but a portfolio like a diversified investment portfolio. That's the power of that. And you bring that to the table, and it can be really beneficial to the individual personally and professionally.

Ken White

So if someone is listening and they're getting ready to transition, and they're from the military or the intelligence community. Kelly, what question or questions should they ask themselves before deciding I want to be a part of this program?

Kelly Crace

I think any question the most common question before engagement in anything is what purpose does this have for me? Being able to lead with purpose moves you away from what we naturally move to as human beings are most naturally motivated by fear and comfort. So we just drift into this thing of dealing with all the have toos of the day and then seek comfort. But the deepest form of motivation and resilience, and engagement starts with the question of the why? What is the purpose of this to me? So I think people that see this as a good thing to check off a good credential to add to their portfolio probably would not be the best people that will find meaning out of it. It's them asking, what's the purpose of this transition for me? What do I feel I need to be able to move myself to the next level and then look at our curriculum and see if that fits that purpose. If it does, then we're the right fit. If it doesn't, there's something else out there somewhere else and keep on looking for that.

Ken White

Yeah. David, what do you think? What questions?

David Long

Absolutely, yeah. Just to build on that, I think a good question to ask is, am I willing to step out of my comfort zone a little bit? It depends on the level of the person who is transitioning. I expect that we're going to see a lot of different levels. And what we find is that the more senior you get, the less willing you are to take risks and to make yourself vulnerable. Well, I think a lot of this program is going to be willing to accept some of that risk and to look at things, new ways to build new relationships, to be self-deprecating, to show some humility, and that can be tough for certain people. So if you're willing to take off the heavy armored coat and learn from other people, I think this is going to be a good fit.

Ken White

Yeah.

Kelly Crace

We're going to create a safe environment, but not a comfortable environment. And I think anybody, when they look back at their lives, can see, was there ever a time where they comfortably grew? And so we're going to take them through a growth process that's uncomfortable but safe.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Kelly Crace and David Long, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. If you're interested in learning more about the Flourishing Through Life's Transitions program, there's more information on the William & Mary website for both participants and companies, and organizations who would like to get involved, go to wm.edu. And type flourishing in the search box, and you'll find everything you need. The dates of the program are June 6th through the 17th, 2022. Be held here on the William & Mary campus. You can also contact the Center for Military Transition for additional information. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guests, Kelly Crace and David Long, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White from all of us here at the William & Mary School of Business. Happy Holidays and Happy New Year.

More Podcast Episodes

 Brad Martin
Brad MartinEpisode 166: December 5, 2021
Qualities of Great Leadership

Brad Martin

Episode 166: December 5, 2021

Qualities of Great Leaders

There is no one path to a leadership position; some people are asked to lead, some are assigned. For others, leadership is a goal. At an early age, Brad Martin sought leadership roles. As a 20-year-old, with no political experience, he ran for public office and became the youngest person ever elected to the Tennessee House of Representatives where he served for five terms. Later he turned to business where he became the CEO of Saks Fifth Avenue and its predecessor firm for nearly 20 years. During his tenure, the value of the company's stock increased more that 12-fold. Martin's leadership journey also took him to higher education where he served as interim president of the University of Memphis - his alma mater. He's currently chairman of RBM Ventures and CEO of the Riverview Acquisition Company. He visited the William & Mary School of Business last month as part of the 10th Annual McGlothlin Leadership Forum. He joins us to discuss leadership, his experience, and the attributes he says are critical to being a successful leader.

Podcast (audio)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What drove Brad to seek out leadership roles
  • What inspired Brad to run for office
  • What it means to be purpose driven
  • How being principles based can strengthen leadership qualities
  • Why collaboration is key for good leaders
  • What it means to communicate with clarity
  • Why leaders should believe all employees are important
  • How leadership has changed in the past 40 years
Transcript

Brad Martin: Qualities of Great Leaders TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. This is Leadership and Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. There is no one path to a leadership position. Some people are asked to lead; some are assigned. For others, leadership is a goal. At an early age, Brad Martin sought leadership roles. As a 20-year-old with no political experience, he ran for public office and became the youngest person ever elected to the Tennessee House of Representatives, where he served for five terms. Later, he turned to business, where he became the CEO of Saks Fifth Avenue and its predecessor firm for nearly 20 years. During his tenure, the value of the company's stock increased more than twelvefold. Martin's leadership journey also took him to higher education, where he served as interim President of the University of Memphis, his alma mater. He's currently chairman of RBM Ventures and CEO of the Riverview Acquisition Company. He visited the William & Mary School of Business last month as part of the 10th annual McGlothlin Leadership Forum. He joins us to discuss leadership. His experience and the attributes he says are critical to being a successful leader. Here's our conversation with Brad Martin.

Ken White

Well, Brad, welcome to William & Mary. Thanks for joining us on the podcast. I appreciate your time.

Brad Martin

Gee, Ken, it's absolutely terrific to be here today.

Ken White

Well, thanks. You're interesting as a leader, and that you sought leadership roles at an early age. What drove that? What made you do that?

Brad Martin

I felt like I really wanted to get involved in some serious things. And initially, it was public policy. It was politics. It was issues in the community, and in high school, I had done service projects and things of that nature and felt motivated to serve and thought, gee whiz, do I want to get in line or do I want to go the head of the line and have the opportunity to really sit down and try to have an impact on things. And so, really, the only way to do that is to find a leadership role and jump right in. And I was privileged to do that.

Ken White

If you think back to your 20 21-year-old self, did you know what you were in for at that time?

Brad Martin

No. When I was 20, I decided to run for the Tennessee House of Representatives. And my friends, I think the most encouraging thing I heard from anybody was it will be good experience. You will get your name out in front of the community. Later on, it'll be helpful when you want to pursue a career in politics. But I told my friends, no, I plan to win the election, and winning the election is how I could go have a seat at the table and deal with some of these community issues that I thought were serious, and that needed some attention. And so I just jumped in, ran for office, and kind of in spite of no experience and probably no qualification, I won.

Ken White

Yeah. What a great story, right. What a great story. And I imagine incredible experience at that age.

Brad Martin

Well, it was clearly when I showed up as a 21-year-old member of the Tennessee House of Representatives, there were kind of two approaches I could take. One was act like I knew everything about everything because I'm 21. And here I am, boy wonder. Or I could show up and say, I'm here to learn. I actually gravitated to the most senior and, in some instances, the oldest people in the legislature and just sopped up everything I possibly could from them to really help me understand how to get things done.

Ken White

Interesting. And that was just the beginning of many leadership roles. And when you talked to our students here, you said that you shared some attributes that you've seen in successful leaders throughout your career, seven in particular. And I thought for our audience. We just sort of walk through them.

Brad Martin

Sure.

Ken White

The first one, purpose-driven. A successful leader is purpose-driven. What do you mean by that?

Brad Martin

I think that you really have to show up for a reason that people are willing to follow the leader. And so it could be in the not for profit area because there is something absolutely critical that you've got to do for a population or a community or a neighborhood, or it could be in a business where you believe there's a service or a product that is absolutely important to people, to customers, again, to communities. So I think there has to be something more than the work involved in any successful enterprise and the leader's job. One of them is to define what that is. What is it about we're doing that is important and therefore purpose-driven.

Ken White

Principles-based.

Brad Martin

Yeah. I think you have to stand for something. Many of the great leaders I have seen are very clear in what they believe in. if it's their personal integrity, if it's their transparency, if it's hard work, if it is relationship-oriented, if it's service oriented. So again, I think if you follow a leader, you want someone who you understand and can sign up for what they believe in what their principles are. And if you're comfortable with those, jump on that team and be willing to be part of that team.

Ken White

Interesting, you say the best leaders need to and have a growth mindset.

Brad Martin

Yeah. I hate working with people who know everything about everything. I absolutely find that boring and unproductive. I want people who want to learn. I want people who want to get better. At our session here last night, I was taking notes from this enormously successful speaker that we had. I learned so much last night, and I'm going to share those notes with my business colleagues, my family members, et cetera. And again, I've seen the best just want to get better. And you do that by being willing to change and being willing to grow.

Ken White

I think early on, for many people in their career, they assume the leader knows everything. And then once they get in, they realize sometimes the leader knows the least amount in the room.

Brad Martin

Well, I think that's right. And I think that's why you better be darn good at asking questions and also establishing a relationship of trust with the people that you work with. I mean, you really want to know the truth, right? I would visit one of our Department stores. I remember one day I visited one of our stores and terrific store manager. And I said, Ralph, I'm here to talk about the business. I said, what can we do at the home office with better advertising to support your store? Nothing, everything's great. I get great support from the advertising department. Okay. How about Merchandising? I said I'm sure there's something we could do in women's apparel or men's or home furnishings. No, I get great support. I got everything I need. It's all fine. I think a third issue I asked him related to staffing or funding for the budget. Everything was perfect. And I told him, Well, that's great because the company is running a 7% sales growth rate. You're running two. And if everything that the home office is doing for you is fine, we must have a problem with the store manager.

Ken White

Oops.

Brad Martin

He said, Well, actually, there are a few things that I think we could do better, but he needed to understand not only did he have permission to tell me what I needed to do better, what my colleagues at the home office needed to do better. We have to know that. And the only way you can get that is to have a relationship of trust.

Ken White

Interesting. Collaboration is key; you say to good leaders, you have to have a collaborative mindset.

Brad Martin

Yeah, you really can't. Particularly as the organization gets larger. You can't do everything by yourself. And what I found as our team got bigger and bigger is there are a number of jobs that I couldn't do at all. In fact, I told our team one day my goal was to have a series of leaders around me, all of whom could do their job better than I could do their job. A I wanted that sort of talent. But B, I wanted everybody to have the opportunity to chime in on, to push back on, to challenge each other. Really interesting experiences where I knew darn well what the decision was I wanted to make. And but by fostering an environment where my colleagues could push back, challenge, question, argue, we ended up getting to a better place. There was one particular instance where I had told my management team I was going to promote a particular person, and they clearly had a different point of view. And they went around the room and told me why that was a bad decision. And I looked at my colleagues and said, Well, you know, this is my decision. I'm the CEO, but I'm supposed to be collaborative. I'm supposed to let you weigh in value your opinion. So what we're going to do is I'm going to wait six months just to show you how much I respect your insight. But I know I'm right. Within six months, that person had left the company. I had fired that person, so I was about to promote someone who would have been a disaster. My colleagues had the permission to tell me it's a mistake, even though they knew I felt otherwise. And by collaborating and listening and letting them win one, we got to a much better place.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Brad Martin in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The great resignation of 2021 continues. Record numbers of people are leaving their jobs. Gallup reports almost half of all professionals in the US have their eyes on other opportunities. If your company or organization is interested in retaining your best people, consider enrolling them in one of our MBA programs for working professionals. William & Mary's part-time MBA, online MBA, and executive MBA programs are each designed for the professional who works full time. So both the employee and the organization benefit from the experience. Employees want to feel supported by their employers. Show them your organization cares by investing in their growth. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary by visiting wm.edu. Now back to our conversation with Brad Martin.

Ken White

For that up and comer, that new professional, it's critical that they speak up and share their mind. That's what the boss wants. But for some, that's pretty tough to do, especially when you're early in your career.

Brad Martin

Oh, sure. You just really don't want yes, ma'am and yes, sir, all the time. Right. Because you just don't want the salute, and let's go. You typically have attracted people with new talents and different talents and immediate understanding. You want them to show up with that day one and feel comfortable. Now you've got to create the environment where they can do that on a risk-free basis, where they can feel safe. And they also can say, I don't quite understand that issue. Help me better see how you're thinking about that.

Ken White

Successful leaders communicate with clarity.

Brad Martin

Yeah. I think that that's hard. It seems sometimes that the more intelligent one might be, the more difficult it is. I mean, I remember one instance where I asked a very smart, highly educated, IV-type MBA to do a session on return on invested capital for our store managers. And I watched the draft of the presentation, and I had a lot of trouble understanding. Now, this was a finance guru, but I didn't need the finance guru to show me everything he or she had learned in business school. I needed a store manager to understand here's how much we spend on the building. Here's how much we spend on the merchandise. Here's how much we spend on the equipment. Here is the revenue we generate. Here are the margins associated with that. Here's what you can do to impact return on invested capital. So simplifying complicated matters is really important for a great leader.

Ken White

You say the best leaders are willing to accept accountability.

Brad Martin

Yeah. That's something that I think can be a challenge for all of us. For me, I was willing to because my only job I ever had in the department store business was the CEO. It was a small company that we acquired. I was the lead investor. I became the CEO without having any idea what I was doing. So I clearly was accountable for performance. The thing I had to learn was to drive accountability throughout the organization, too. I know there were instances where I would say, Gee, this person in finance is great at accounting, but not very good at transactions, but I'm good at transactions. So I'll help that person. Or this colleague in apparel is really good at women's, but not men's. But I'm pretty good at men's apparel. I'll help that. And I would tend to do that with six or seven or eight or nine or ten individuals in my organization. Next thing you know, I'm doing part of their job, not mine, and their accountability is diffused by me being involved in doing their job. So really, driving that accountability throughout the organization is a key element of leadership.

Ken White

So the leader being accountable but also holding everyone else accountable to what they're supposed to be getting done.

Brad Martin

Absolutely. And if you don't, it's not fair to the organization, and it's not fair to the team, and they know it.

Ken White

Or the person.

Brad Martin

Exactly.

Ken White

Yeah. I've had so many interviews with human resource professionals who say people know when they're not performing. They're the first ones to know. As a matter of fact.

Brad Martin

It's really the company's fault. And the leaders fault if they're not because they're obviously not in the right job.

Ken White

Believe everyone matters.

Brad Martin

Yeah. This is a big deal to me. We actually operate on a first-name basis at the company. We had an organizational chart where we actually put the customer at the top of the organizational pyramid and the CEO at the bottom. I really looked at my job as a servant leader-type responsibility. And while the CEO's job gets a higher degree of compensation than somebody working in the distribution center. The human value of the individual we're the same from my perspective. And so very, very important to me that we had an organization where every single individual was treated with dignity, with value, and had the opportunity to be everything that individual wanted to be in the work.

Ken White

I assumed then people felt very comfortable approaching you regardless of what they did for the organization.

Brad Martin

Absolutely. There's no question. I had many relationships throughout the organization. A couple I can recall. One evening I'd work late, stopped, and got some a quick bite to eat. It's about 830 at night, and I decided I'm going to drive over to this kind of suburban locations, see the store. So I walk in about 30 minutes before closing, and I see one of our associates in one of the departments. Barbara and Barbara said, Brad, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for coming. And I'm so glad you didn't tell us you were coming. And I said, well, why Barbara? She said because we're kind of busy. I got a lot to get done. And if we had known you were coming, we would have had to drop all of the important things we're doing to get ready for your visit. So thanks for coming. Thanks for not telling us. So is that sort of an environment that you really want to work in?

Ken White

Well, that leads to your last one. And that is personal authenticity being yourself?

Brad Martin

Yeah. I think that, as I always quote Oscar Wilde, who said, be yourself because everyone else is taken. People get it when you are authentic, and they get it when you aren't. And I think they want to work with and for somebody who brings the honest, authentic self to work. Not something they've read in a textbook seen on TV or attempting to model because there was a successful entrepreneur executive somewhere that they heard that's the way you manage.

Ken White

Has leadership changed since you at the beginning of your career? What I mean by that is culture is a little tough these days with a lot of gotcha mentality out there. You make one mistake. It could be on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. Has that changed or what has changed, I guess, is my real question. What has changed with leadership from the time you started to today?

Brad Martin

I think the existence of the digital and social world just magnifies everything and gives a voice to everybody that didn't quite exist obviously before that. And that's good and bad. It's good that there's no filter in terms of access to bringing the spotlight on something inappropriate behavior. It's bad in the standpoint that there's no filter for unfair or unaccountable, if you will, observations or postulations. I think that there's a lot of sensitivity associated with the social world that I never had to deal with before. But I think you always have to operate on the assumption that what you do will be second-guessed, questioned, pushed, and be comfortable in your own skin. I had many successes. I had many failures, and I was never really permitted myself to be defined by either. I am who I am, and I had a better idea than the person writing about me. I was never quite as good or quite as bad as I tended to read.

Ken White

Great point. This might be an unfair question, but as you look back at the leaders whom you worked for over the years, are there a few that really stand out that helped you and affected you positively?

Brad Martin

Oh, there are so many, I think the Pope said. Part of all I have met and anybody that comes on the podcast and talks about being a self-made man or woman, throw them off, cut them off. It doesn't exist, right? You can work hard, and you can overcome a lot of obstacles. But I guarantee you each of us have had mentors, supporters along the way. I knew nothing about the department store business, and ex department store retired executive took me under his wing. And when I was CEO, the company said, I'm going to teach you something about the business. Fred Smith, the founder of FedEx unbelievable executive who taught me the humility associated with executive leadership as well as the absolute critical importance of culture. Henry Loeb, the former Mayor of Memphis, Mayor of Memphis when Martin Luther King was killed, a political leader who was quite controversial, also had this very, very private part of him that was involved with providing a lot of personal support to disadvantaged and disabled people. And Loeb taught me there are no little people.

Ken White

What advice do you have for a young professional who thinks leadership is something they might want to have in their future?

Brad Martin

I'd say, just go for it, just go for it and be prepared. In my view, the biggest risk you're going to face is the risk of embarrassment. So what, right? If you don't lay it all out there, you'll never have that opportunity. So don't worry about the risk of an embarrassment. You're the only one that's going to remember that for very long, and then just pick yourself up and do it again and again and again.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Brad Martin, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The great resignation of 2021 continues as record numbers of people are leaving their jobs. If your company or organization is interested in retaining your best people, consider enrolling them in one of our MBA programs for working professionals. William & Mary's part-time MBA, online MBA, and executive MBA programs are all designed for the professional who works full time. So both the employee and the organization benefit from the experience. Employees want to feel supported by their employers. Show them your organization cares by investing in their growth and future. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary by visiting wm.edu. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest Brad Martin and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Quimby Kaizer
Quimby KaizerEpisode 165: November 21, 2021
Creating Value

Quimby Kaizer

Episode 165: November 21, 2021

Creating Value

In today's highly competitive environment, the best businesses, organizations, and professionals create value. How and for whom may differ somewhat, but the outcomes's the same: Creating value helps you succeed. The target may be customers and organizations, stakeholders or others, but the goal is fairly consistent across sectors. Creating value often means delivering an outcome the client seeks. One that leads to a benefit. Quimby Kaizer knows all about creating value, she's a consultant and principal at KPMG. Over the course of her 25 year career in consulting, she's learned that value does not manage itself. It's deliberate. She visited the William & Mary School of Business recently as a guest speaker in an undergraduate consulting class, afterward she joined us on the podcast to talk about creating value and the necessary steps involved, such as presenting a fresh picture of the problem, defining value, and nailing down the goal.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What is value and how is it defined
  • Who decides what value is placed on a problem or opportunity
  • How is value determined among all of the stakeholders
  • How value is deliberate and doesn't manage itself
  • How to identify the proper stakeholders
  • How have organizations become more complex in the past 20 years
  • Does having a large workload equal value
  • How should a young professional create value
Transcript

Quimby Kaizer: Creating Value TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. This is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. In today's highly competitive environment, the best businesses, organizations, and professionals create value. How and for whom may differ somewhat, but the outcome is the same. Creating value helps you succeed. The target may be customers, an organization, stakeholders, or others, but the goal is fairly consistent across sectors. Creating value often means delivering an outcome the client seeks, one that leads to a benefit. Quimby Kaizer knows all about creating value. She's a consultant and principal at KPMG. Over the course of her 25-year career in consulting, she's learned that value does not manage itself. It's deliberate. She visited the William & Mary School of Business recently as a guest speaker in an undergraduate consulting class. Afterward, she joined us on the podcast to talk about creating value and the necessary steps involved, such as presenting a fresh picture of the problem, defining value, and nailing down the goal. Here's our conversation with Quimby Kaiser, consultant, and principal at KPMG.

Ken White

Well, Quimby, thanks for joining us, and welcome back to campus.

Quimby Kaizer

Happy to be here.

Ken White

How was class? You just taught a group of undergraduates. How was it for you?

Quimby Kaizer

It was great to be back in person. I'm so delighted. Even masked, it's better to be in person and interacting with the students than doing it via Zoom. So it's great to be down here.

Ken White

It's interesting to just watch their reaction and listen to their questions. Our undergraduates are so sharp; what an interesting time to interact with them.

Quimby Kaizer

Yeah. And fun to be with them as they've already started their projects, their consulting projects, and they're already coming against some stumbling blocks, which is fun because it makes it more relevant, less theoretical, and more practical of I really need to do this, and I can apply this immediately.

Ken White

Yeah.

Quimby Kaizer

So that's a really good questions.

Ken White

Yeah. So it was a consulting class, and you came in to talk to them. Basically, what you're talking to them about is value and creating value and how consultants do that how you and your colleagues do that. What is value? How do you define that?

Quimby Kaizer

Well, I think value is achieving an outcome that your client will benefit from. I guess in the simplest terms. We call value management or value delivery benefits realization. There's tons of different terminology for it, but ultimately, achieving an outcome that has benefit. Now how you define what the benefit is and who defines that benefit is part of what we talked about. But ultimately, I think that's what value is.

Ken White

So if they're bringing you in, there's usually a problem or an opportunity. How important is seeing that the correct way?

Quimby Kaizer

I think it's critical to as a consultant when you are deliberately trying to define what value is. Since value is in the eye beholder, and that could be different people. It could be the sponsor could be multiple people who are involved in a particular project, but really understanding where you can have an impact and what is going to help them accomplish what their goal is. I'm amazed that the more that I'm in this field, which has been quite a while. It is really going back to basics and asking people, what are you trying to accomplish? Starting with the end in mind and just asking that question really will sometimes kind of shake people up because we're so used to whatever we've been doing or whatever we've always approached, how we've always approached things. We just keep doing the same thing, but saying, what are you really trying to accomplish so that we can design something that does that, and that's where I think the value that is achieved.

Ken White

And how do you get there? I assume conversations.

Quimby Kaizer

Yeah. Lots of questions. And I think we talked about in the class, too. It's lots and lots of questions, but not the questions about necessarily the technical aspects of what you're trying to do. But what is the outcome? Who will be the recipient of those? What do they want to accomplish as a next step from what you're doing? What is happening in their environment that may influence what you might do? Like there's a lot of things that are context. We talked about painting done, but there's a lot of context that is a presenting problem you might not otherwise be privy to. So making sure that you're asking lots of questions so that you're getting the full picture, the full, colorful picture of what the context is.

Ken White

And I'm assuming different people have different context. So it's not so clear, is it?

Quimby Kaizer

Yeah. Lots of questions. And I think we talked about in the class, too. It's lots and lots of questions, but not the questions about necessarily the technical aspects of what you're trying to do. But what is the outcome? Who will be the recipient of those? What do they want to accomplish as a next step from what you're doing? What is happening in their environment that may influence what you might do? Like there's a lot of things that are context. We talked about painting done, but there's a lot of context that is a presenting problem you might not otherwise be privy to. So making sure that you're asking lots of questions so that you're getting the full picture, the full, colorful picture of what the context is.

Ken White

And I'm assuming different people have different context. So it's not so clear, is it?

Quimby Kaizer

No. Actually, typically it isn't. Even if you think about meetings, we're in a lot of meetings every single day. I mean, how often does someone say, what are we trying to accomplish here and starting from that vantage point, if you can just take it down to the meeting and saying, so everyone has a different context, knowing what their paradigm is, and really, if possible, even walking in their shoes in order to really understand that will help really give you a leg up on being able to add value versus doing what you've always done or doing what I think might be valuable. But it isn't going to be valuable to you.

Ken White

You said value doesn't manage itself. It's very deliberate. Can you talk about that? What do you mean?

Quimby Kaizer

Well, the concept of when you are thinking about what outcomes you're trying to accomplish, you can never lose sight of that. That you need to be thoughtful about it on the onset. You need to frame and think about what you're doing from a project perspective. But you also need it to be your guiding light throughout the entire project. It's very easy to get enamored with the technology or enamored with the data, or where it's easy to lose sight of what are we trying to do? So it's easy to get lost in the forest. And I think value is a way to rise above and really look at the point. Which can also help you be more efficient and effective, too, because you're not necessarily doing things that aren't needed, right. You can really kind of keep that bigger perspective in mind. And I think value is a great way to do it because, ultimately, consultants do projects right. There's a beginning, there's a middle, and there's an end. There's always an end. Typically, otherwise, you're probably not a consulting. So knowing that there is an end and staying focused on that, I think, is a way to just ground the project.

Ken White

You said beginning, middle, and end the beginning. The beginning that's an important time to create that value. How do you approach that at the beginning?

Quimby Kaizer

Really, by asking lots of questions, setting a lot of expectations, getting a lot of feedback. So I think we tend to shortcut the start-up phase of projects, maybe because of demands or because we're moving really fast, we don't stop and really explore. What are you trying to accomplish? What would success look like for you? Where have you been successful before? Can you tell me about that? What would be the next step that, if we're successful, would help you accomplish your goals? What goals are you trying to accomplish? Where does this project sit in the context of your strategy? So a lot of those types of questions we quickly go through or never go through and kind of jump in on the task at hand, which doesn't always necessarily you not necessarily failing. But you have a greater likelihood of being successful and really achieving value. If you do have those questions on the onset of the project with the right people, by the way.

Ken White

That was going to be my question. Because you said to the students, you got to start with who, who is important, and that means identifying the right individuals.

Quimby Kaizer

Yeah. Absolutely. So the sponsors, the stakeholders, we talked about the stakeholders being anyone who can influence or is influenced by a project and stakeholders. I think the more integrated our businesses get, the more complex the stakeholders get. Right. And so I think knowing and understanding who those people are, why they're important, what voice they're going to have in the process, the different perspectives, the whole concept of go slow to go fast. I think sometimes, on the front end of projects, we want to quickly get into the analysis or quickly start to show, quote, unquote progress. And we miss the foundational settings that really ultimately are going to help us guide what success, ultimately, what it will be.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Quimby Kaizer in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The great resignation of 2021 is in high gear, as record numbers of people are leaving their jobs. Gallup reports almost half of all professionals in the US have their eyes on other opportunities. If your company or organization is interested in retaining your best people, consider enrolling them in one of our MBA programs for working professionals. William & Mary's part-time MBA, online MBA, and executive MBA programs are all designed for the professional who works full time. So both the employee and the organization benefit from the experience. Employees want to feel supported by their employers. Show them you care by investing in their growth and future with a William & Mary MBA. To learn more about our MBA programs for working professionals, visit wm.edu. Now back to our conversation on Creating Value with Quimby Kaizer of KPMG.

Ken White

You mentioned complexity in organizations in your career. Are you seeing is it fair to say organizations are more complex today than they were when you started?

Quimby Kaizer

I don't know if they're more complex. I think there are more complex parts of organizations. I think with technology and data becoming so just so common. I think that adds an element of. I guess an element or maybe a dimension of complexity. But I think we tend to overemphasize that. Where we think it's going to be. It's funny to me, after being in this business for a long time, people still think there are silver bullets out there. There are no silver bullets. Truly. I just don't think they exist, right? But I think it's almost easier to think that there's a silver bullet because of what's available to us. But Interestingly enough, we don't step back and say, Why are we collecting this data? How are we going to use this technology? What are we trying to accomplish ultimately with what we're doing? So if all of those things would be put into context, I think they would be a lot more effective than what they are today. I think we do a lot of suboptimal investments because we really don't know what we're trying to accomplish, or we kid ourselves on what, and when I say kid ourselves, we're unrealistic about how much energy it will take to actually adopt or implement. So we just don't get the full value of what we set out to do.

Ken White

Are we working faster? It seems like the pace is pretty high right now across most industries. Are you seeing that?

Quimby Kaizer

Oh, yeah. I think it was that way before, but I think it's even more so now everyone is very heads down, very operationally oriented, and I think a lot of even bringing it back to the value part of this. It's heads up. It's heads up thinking to stop and say, Why are we doing this? What are we trying to accomplish? I think it's harder today to do that and have the patience to do it because we're so busy. Busy feels good. I guess in one sense of the word, if I'm really busy and I'm always multitasking, I feel like I'm getting things done. But am I really getting value from what I'm doing? Right. And I think that's slowing down, maybe a good thing.

Ken White

Yeah. Absolutely. Activity doesn't necessarily mean excellence, right? Far from it, you said value is in the eye of the beholder. You were telling the students that can you tell us about that?

Quimby Kaizer

The more I know, the less I know, right. I think that it's sort of the idea of just what I want to accomplish isn't what may be valuable to you. So my objective is to really, truly walk in your shoes and understand what are you trying to accomplish? Paint your environment, paint your organization. Make sure that you've got all of the perspectives, which maybe is the harder part these days. Is there's enough variety of people that are involved in a particular project or initiative, or what have you? But bringing those people together in a way that is truly helping the organization move forward or accomplishing whatever the goal is it's maybe bringing people together is becoming more important in order to get that focus on priorities. I guess that's the other thing that I see, too, is I've been doing a lot of work. A lot of strategy workaround setting priorities because I think it's harder and harder for organizations to discern the few things they need to do really well because everyone is always heads down tactical. Right. And so that prioritization the strategy being able to stick to a strategy kind of the same idea. Right. Stay focused on what are you trying to accomplish?

Ken White

And we all know that we all know we should be doing two or three things, but our list has twelve things on it.

Quimby Kaizer

And we do them poorly, or we never finish them right. It's funny. It's not hard. We all get it right. When you talk to anybody, everyone says, well, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Why can't we do it? What makes it so hard for us to stop and just focus or stop and ask a question? It is hard, though.

Ken White

Yeah. No doubt. Let's shift from consulting and creating value as a consultant to that professional, the manager, the young professional in an organization. What kind of advice do you have for those folks to create value? Do you take some time out of your when you're thinking when you're strategizing? Where does that come into play do you think for a professional?

Quimby Kaizer

It's a good question when I think about a person in an organization. That role is there for a purpose. Right. So you have a job description. You have outcomes that hopefully you're aware of, right of what you're trying to accomplish in the organization. You have a role. You have potentially performance outcomes that you're measured on. I think if you even think about it from a role perspective, there's an opportunity for every single person to say, how am I adding value to the organization? How do I connect what I'm doing to my team or to my division, or to my organization? So that one, you're grounded in that, and you understand what that contribution is. But then two, you may have the ability to influence impact, change, improve on that as well. I think a lot of people desire clarity on the why. Why am I doing this? I think by asking that value question, you can also unpack the why, which also can help you, maybe even just kind of rekindle that purpose with organization as well, too.

Ken White

It'd be great if people look at you and say that's someone who creates value in this company, right? Wow.

Quimby Kaizer

Yeah, absolutely.

Ken White

And I assume that some of the steps you talk about as consultants find the problem, figure out what it is. Talk to people that would be the same for the professional.

Quimby Kaizer

Absolutely. Every organization and every person in an organization is just a microcosm of a project. Right. And there is unlimited ways to stop and say, how am I adding value? What is success look like seeing opportunities for improvement? I think there's so many changes going on in the world today, and there's so many opportunities to frame value and your value in an organization or to reframe what that looks like, or god forbid that you're bored in your job. Right. And you say, I just need a challenge to go find ways to add value, and just having those conversations with people, I think, will rekindle a conversation around where the needs are at. Right. And how people can step up and start to fill those needs or fill those gaps.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Quimby Kaizer, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Record numbers of professionals are leaving their jobs in the great resignation of 2021. If your company or organization is interested in retaining your best people, consider enrolling them in one of our MBA programs for working professionals. William & Mary's part-time MBA, online MBA, and executive MBA programs are all designed for the professional who works full time. So both the employee and the organization benefit from the experience. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Quimby Kaizer, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White, wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Strauss Zelnick
Strauss ZelnickEpisode 164: November 5, 2021
America's Fittest CEO

Strauss Zelnick

Episode 164: November 5, 2021

America's Fittest CEO

Leadership is tough. For that matter, just about every job today is tough; the hours, the effort, the competition, the people, the pandemic. Success today requires a certain level of mental and physical fitness. As a result, exercise is key. And while it's important, it can be challenging to find the time to work out regularly. If you're ever in need of some motivation, look to Strauss Zelnick - the Chairman and CEO of Take-Two Interactive Software, and founder of the private equity firm Zelnick Media Capital. A successful leader, entrepreneur, and executive, he's in his 60s and he's often called "America's Fittest CEO." He's the author of "Becoming Ageless: The Four Secrets of Looking and Feeling Younger Than Ever." Zelnick believes that if he can do it, you can do it. He visited the William & Mary School of Business last month as part of the 10th Annual McGlothlin Leadership Forum. He joins us on the podcast to discuss the connection between success and fitness.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn | Spotify

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What motivated Strauss to get involved with fitness
  • Why one should start slowly on their fitness journey
  • How to manage workouts at home
  • What is a typical workout for Strauss
  • The importance of working out with other people
  • How do personal trainers help with a workout regimen
  • How does physical fitness help a professional
  • How does exercise benefit mental health
  • Why a good diet should always be considered when considering one's fitness journey
Transcript

Strauss Zelnick: America's Fittest CEO TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you to a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Leadership is tough. For that matter, just about every job today is tough; the hours, the effort, the competition, the people, the pandemic. Success today requires a certain level of mental and physical fitness. As a result, exercise is key. And while it's important, it can be challenging to find the time to work out regularly. Well, if you're ever in need of some motivation, look to Strauss Zelnick, the chairman, and CEO of Take-Two Interactive Software and founder of the private equity firm Zelnick Media Capital. A successful leader, entrepreneur, and executive, he's in his 60s, and he's often called America's Fittest CEO. He's the author of Becoming Ageless: The Four Secrets to Looking and Feeling Younger Than Ever. Zelnick believes, if he can do it, you can do it. He visited the William & Mary School of Business last month as part of the 10th annual McGlothlin Leadership Forum. He joins us on the podcast to discuss the connection between success and fitness. Here's our conversation with Strauss Zelnick, America's fittest CEO.

Ken White

Well, Strauss, welcome back to William & Mary. And thanks for joining us on the podcast.

Strauss Zelnick

Thanks for having me.

Ken White

So in terms of fitness, what were you like as a kid? Into sports, not into sports?

Strauss Zelnick

No, I wasn't particularly athletic. I was a student. I played guitar. I wrote music. And athletics just weren't a primary interest to me.

Ken White

How did you get into it?

Strauss Zelnick

Well, I did run, and I lifted weights when I was a teenager because I was so skinny. I wanted to put on some bulk, and it seemed to be impossible. There was nothing I could do. I think when I was 17, I think I was 5'10" and weighed about 115 pounds. So you get the idea. But I sort of got into weights as a result of trying to address that. And then what really motivated me was I was in grad school, and I was hanging around with some friends one night, and my buddy Ted looked at me and said, "Strauss, you have a ponch." My response was, "No, I don't. I'm skinny. I've always been skinny." And he said, "Well, you may be skinny, but you have a ponch." And I looked down, and I thought, wow, that's probably not so far off the mark. And the next day, I decided to get involved with fitness. And I went to the gym at school, which wasn't much of a gym, and developed a very rudimentary program and started really slowly.

Ken White

And isn't that the key for people who are new starting slowly?

Strauss Zelnick

I think so. First, you have to be realistic about your goals, and the media doesn't do us any favors here. So when you see a website that says, take this pill and you can have perfect body in three weeks, everything in that sentence I just said is not true. A pill won't do it. You can't have a perfect body, probably ever, and certainly not in three weeks. And the second thing that you're told or people feel they're told often is do this program for three weeks or four weeks or 90 days, and you will be transformed. That's also not true, but it's actually worse than that. If you take someone who is sedentary and ask them immediately to engage in robust exercise, their mind may discipline them to do that for a week or two, but that's about it. You just can't do it for longer than that. It's just too hard and unpleasant. So what I recommend is start very slowly and gently and be kind to yourself. And if you're not getting any exercise now, start by walking one day a week for 15 minutes, preferably with a friend or a partner, to make it more enjoyable. And as you get used to that, maybe bring it up to 30 minutes and make it two days a week, and do that for a few weeks. And your body will ease into it. And your body will let you know when you're ready for a bit more. And then maybe add a day of calisthenics. So some push-ups and sit-ups for five or 10 minutes at home. Add that. So now you're walking two days a week, and you add one day of calisthenics. And then, if that feels okay, add a second day of calisthenics. And maybe at that point, you go either do an online fitness program, which is super easy to do. Just go to YouTube, and I can give you some recommendations and maybe add a bodyweight fitness class. And then, if you're motivated, join a gym and meet a trainer. But what I just described that period of induction, if you're not doing anything right now. That should probably take you two or three months. And if you push it and you make it go faster, you run the risk of abandoning the program.

Ken White

Or injury, and then you'll never get back again, right?

Strauss Zelnick

Exactly.

Ken White

You mentioned cardio and strength. Important to do both, in your mind?

Strauss Zelnick

I think unquestionably as you move along the process. When you start, however, anything that you do to start is okay. Whatever feels best.

Ken White

So how do you work when you're at home, not traveling? How do you work your workouts in? What's your plan?

Strauss Zelnick

So I schedule my workouts like a meeting. I treat my workouts with the same respect that I would treat having a cup of coffee with a friend or having a meal, or having a business meeting. So as I look at my calendar for the upcoming week, and I do plan ahead with flexibility as things have to change, I'll make sure that my workouts are scheduled. And by scheduling those workouts, I have a sense of the variety that I've built in or lack of variety sometimes. I do a lot of weightlifting.

Ken White

Preferably, are you a morning lifter? Evening? What do you prefer?

Strauss Zelnick

I like to get exercise in the morning. I generally do, but not always. And then sometimes I'm fortunate enough to get back to the gym and do some more exercise in the evening.

Ken White

What about when you travel?

Strauss Zelnick

Pretty much the same. I'm pretty good. This morning I missed my workout. It was a late night last night, and I knew that I needed more sleep than I needed more exercise. But I'll work out this evening when I get home.

Ken White

You'll push a little harder tonight to make up for missing this morning?

Strauss Zelnick

Maybe or maybe I won't. Maybe I'll just give myself a break and understand that I've already worked out a lot so far this week.

Ken White

So you've touched on it a little bit in terms of what do you do. What would be a typical workout for you?

Strauss Zelnick

A typical workout would be high-intensity interval training where I'm lifting weights and doing some cardio, often with a timer with other people for somewhere between 40 and 60 minutes. Another typical workout would be a weights workout built out of supersets. So one exercise followed immediately by another exercise before you take a rest.

Ken White

Twice, you've mentioned other people. Is that important to you to work out with others?

Strauss Zelnick

Very much so. I think working out by yourself is boring and a missed opportunity to connect with other people and enjoy their company and in a low-stress, natural way. So I think it's why people play golf with other people, and it's why we go to the movies with other people. It's nice to pursue leisure with other people, but no matter what kind it is. And lifting weights can be boring and painful, so if you have someone else there, it takes the edge off.

Ken White

Yeah. I assume you've worked with personal trainers?

Strauss Zelnick

I have and still do.

Ken White

What do you think? How do they help you? I guess number one.

Strauss Zelnick

Well, their expertise helps, and you definitely want to work with someone who knows what they're doing, who's not going to get you injured, and who's going to help you along your path. They're also motivating, and I often train with my trainer. So not always I have a trainer I'll be training with Friday who does not train with the group. In other instances, though, the trainer actually will work out with me, and that's beneficial in two ways. First of all, it's motivating. Secondly, I seem to do better when I see something done, as opposed to listening to the words about how it should be done.

Ken White

Yeah. So how does fitness, physical fitness help you as a professional?

Strauss Zelnick

I think fitness is really tied to leadership. First, I think to lead people. You have to convey energy. And being reasonably fit will help you feel energetic and appear energetic. Secondly, I think looking your best is a sign of self-respect and respect for others, and it's probably not popular to say that, but I believe that. And I think if you show up feeling fit, feeling energized, feeling young, even if you're not and I'm not and looking the best you can look, these things are consistent with doing a good job in business, doing a good job in relationships. It's a way of showing up for yourself and others.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Strauss Zelnick in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The great resignation of 2021 continues as record numbers of people are leaving their jobs. Gallup Reports, almost half of all professionals in the US have their eyes on other opportunities. Well, if your company or organization wants to retain your best people, consider enrolling them in one of our MBA programs for working professionals. William & Mary's part-time MBA, online MBA, and executive MBA are designed for the professional who works full time so both the employee and the organization benefit. Employees want to feel supported by their employers. Show them your organization cares by investing in their growth. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary by visiting wm.edu. Now back to our conversation with Strauss Zelnick.

Ken White

How does it affect your mental health and your attitude?

Strauss Zelnick

Oh, hugely. Once you get into exercise, it's hard not to do it. If I don't exercise for more than a day, and I have to force myself to take a rest day. If it goes on for more than a day, then I start feeling low. And even my wife will say, you should probably go to the gym even though she thinks I work out too much. So getting exercise really is an emotional boost.

Ken White

Those who work for you, do you try to promote it verbally or by example?

Strauss Zelnick

Everything comes from the top, good and bad. I don't need to promote fitness. What I do say to people is, at all my organizations, look, no one will ever criticize you for leaving the office to go watch your kid play music or play sports. No one will ever criticize you for taking an hour to go to the gym during the day. We encourage you to have a personal life, and they know that I do that. And they know that I go to the gym and I work out with my colleagues sometimes. But I stopped well short of saying because I like this, you ought to do it. So any more than I would say because I like I don't know. I like to read nonfiction about US history that you should do that. But when the leader of an organization is doing stuff that's positive for him or her, that comes across that. People see that. And so, as a result, we have pretty fit organizations, but it's not demanded. We also pay for gym memberships or partially pay for gym memberships. And at our biggest company, we have an array of fitness-oriented programs because the team likes them, and we're happy to provide them. Actually, my biggest company, I lead two workouts a week on Zoom that people join from wherever they are in the world, and I usually have somewhere between 60 and 100 people show up.

Ken White

Wow, what that does for culture is going to be fantastic.

Strauss Zelnick

Certainly for the people who come.

Ken White

Yeah. Now food, of course, is critical. I think of my friends who work out. Food might not be terribly important. You pay attention to that. How did you get interested in food? And how did you start looking at food?

Strauss Zelnick

Well, I don't pay meticulous attention, frankly. I try to eat a healthy diet because, again, that's consistent with feeling good and longevity and health, and we ought to pay attention to it. And you know what's good for you? In the book that I wrote about fitness and health, there's a whole section on food and diet, but it's relatively straightforward, which is there are certain things you just shouldn't put in your body, like soda. Diet or otherwise or fruit juice, because fruit juice is just sugar and water or vegetable juice, same thing. You shouldn't drink your calories. It makes no sense. You should shy away from as much as possible; highly refined carbs and fried foods. But I eat dessert, so I mention that just so people don't think I'm misleading anyone. You should eat a lot of vegetables and salads. And I have a salad before lunch and dinner every day and keep the dressings as light as possible. You should eat whole carbs more than refined carbs. But again, some refined carbs are okay, too. And then lean protein. And then the truth is, if you put too many calories in your body, then you're going to gain weight. If you manage the calories you put in your body, you will either maintain or lose weight. And that's pretty much what any dietitian will tell you. You can spend lots of time and write lots of pages, but that's pretty much what people will tell you.

Ken White

So many people will say I work out so I can eat. So that's difficult to get on that healthy eating path for many people. Do you recommend they do it slowly like you recommend starting a fitness program?

Strauss Zelnick

Yes. Again, if you decide, I'm going to go on a keto diet tomorrow and some extreme diet. You can lose weight quickly. You'll probably gain it all back. If you are aiming to lose weight, the only way you can lose it and keep it off is with a very gentle approach. And it's easiest to just understand there are certain food groups that you have to eliminate or limit strictly, and then you have to watch your portions. Those are the easiest ways to look at it. In terms of I work out to eat. Well, you better be working out a whole lot because working out really doesn't burn calories. If you're running a whole lot, you will burn calories. But I'm talking about someone who runs for hours. If you go and run for 20 minutes or 30 minutes, you burn 300, 400 calories. That's one and a half candy bars. That's it. You can't really outwork your mouth. You got to control what you put in your body.

Ken White

You mentioned your book. Why did you write it? What got you to sit down and actually do that?

Strauss Zelnick

Well, I have a lot of friends in the fitness business. And my friend Dave Zinczenko, who runs his own media company and was formerly responsible for Men's Health magazine, encouraged me to write a book. And his label published it through Simon & Schuster. I think the motivation was that I've been doing this for a long time. I'm now in my 60s, and his view was, you have a great story to tell about how you can look pretty good and feel very good and be very energetic well into an age where a lot of people don't think that's possible. And so the book is called Becoming Ageless. And it's about taking care of your health. It does mention diet. It talks about exercise as well and then having a spiritual life, which I think are the four tenets to a healthy and happy life at any age.

Ken White

Yeah. We've had many guests who've written books on the podcast. I always have to ask, how did you write it? Because I know we have a lot of listeners who can write books. What was your process?

Strauss Zelnick

Well, I had a co-author on this. I've written two books. One, I did not have a co-author on. This one, I did, Zack Zeigler, who is a great writer and is editor in chief of Muscle and Fitness. And so Zack did a great deal of the writing with me. He interviewed me. The interviews were transcribed that formed the basis of a lot of what's in the book. I then physically wrote a bunch of the book, but he also wrote a lot of it and edited it carefully. And he had a great deal to do with the sections on specific exercises and specific diet plans. So that was a help. But basically, we spent about a couple of months doing interviews. I spent perhaps six or eight months writing, and then we spent about a year working on the editing the final copy and the design.

Ken White

Now you're here at the business school. You've met with a number of undergraduate business students and MBA students as well. Man, these are busy people who do like working out, but it might be the first thing to go when their list is heavy. What advice do you have for them and for all professionals who might say, I'll skip that workout, and eventually they're just not doing it?

Strauss Zelnick

Look, you can't have it all. You have to decide what your priorities are, and it's a uniquely American fantasy that we can be all things to all people at all times. We can't be. And there are times in one's life where certain things do have to take a backseat. And you have work to do. You're going to school. You have kids at home. You have partner with needs. These things may have to take precedence at times. However, you also have to know what you want. And truly, to show up for yourself and others, you do have to take care of yourself. You have to engage in self-care. And for me, exercise is part of that self-care. So I think there are times in one's life when you can easily create a priority around fitness, and there are other times when it will be harder. I think you have to be gentle with yourself. But I think if you're really not going to get exercise for more than a week or two or three, then you're going to pay a price that probably will be more costly than finding time to exercise along the way.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Strauss Zelnick. And that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Companies, organizations, and businesses are seeking professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. Check out the William & Mary MBA program to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding our podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Strauss Zelnick, thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White, wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Kim Lopdrup
Kim LopdrupEpisode 163: October 20, 2021
Successful Turnarounds

Kim Lopdrup

Episode 163: October 20, 2021

Successful Turnarounds

Virtually every leader has been faced with a turnaround situation - bringing a failing organization back to its former successful state. Or finding a high-quality solution to a problem that can no longer continue. A new leader is brought in to direct the turnaround situation in some instances. In other cases, the current leadership team is expected to get things back on track. And most often sooner rather than later. Because turnarounds are challenging, complex, and often situation-dependent, each one is unique. But all turnarounds have one thing in common: They require effective leadership. As Rosabeth Moss Kantor wrote in Harvard Business Review, "turnarounds are where leadership matters most." Kim Lopdrup knows how to lead turnarounds. He successfully faced a number of them in his career at Red Lobster, where he served as CEO for 14 years across two different stints before retiring this past summer. Under his watch, Red Lobster has more than exceeded expectations through the pandemic. He joins us today to talk about the elements of successful turnarounds, including communicating with employees, believing in the plan, and getting it done quickly.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn | Spotify

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • Which organizations Kim has successfully led turnarounds
  • What are some key steps to a successful turnaround
  • How Kim and his team were able to turnaround Baskin Robbins in Japan
  • The importance of retaining employees
  • How to decide who should be on a leadership turnaround team
  • How do you motivate leaders to help with a turnaround
  • Is there a standard time frame for a turnaround
  • What does navigating a successful turnaround do to team dynamics
  • The role of confidence in regards to decision-making
Transcript

Kim Lopdrup: Successful Turnarounds TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Well, virtually every leader has been faced with a turnaround situation, bringing a failing organization back to its former successful state or finding a high-quality solution to a problem that can no longer continue. A new leader is brought in to direct the turnaround situation in some instances. In other cases, the current leadership team is expected to get things back on track and most often sooner rather than later. Because turnarounds are challenging, complex, and often situation-dependent, each one is unique, but all turnarounds have one thing in common. They require effective leadership. As Rosabeth Moss Canter wrote in Harvard Business Review, turnarounds are where leadership matters most. Kim Lopdrup knows how to lead turnarounds. He successfully faced a number of them in his career at Red Lobster, where he served as CEO for 14 years across two different stints before retiring this past summer. Under his watch, Red Lobster has more than exceeded expectations through the pandemic. He joins us today to talk about the elements of successful turnarounds, including communicating with employees, believing in the plan, and getting it done quickly. Here's our conversation with the recently retired CEO of Red Lobster, Kim Lopdrup.

Ken White

Well, Kim, thanks for joining us, and welcome back to William & Mary. It's nice to have you back.

Kim Lopdrup

Thank you. It's great to be back, Ken.

Ken White

And you'll be seeing some students later on today. I'm sure that'll just be a lot of fun for you.

Kim Lopdrup

Yes, I'll be in Professor Ron Hess's class. Really looking forward to that.

Ken White

When you and I talked about sitting down again for the podcast, we thought turnarounds might be an interesting topic. You've led quite a few of these in your career. Tell us about that.

Kim Lopdrup

Yeah, actually, I've been part of five turnarounds at this point. The first was when actually my first chance to be CEO. I was CEO of what really the international division of Dunkin Brands, which was Dunkin Donuts, Baskin Robbins. The business was losing money, and the parent company frankly lost confidence in it and said the assignment was, please stop losing money quickly. And we did within 90 days and went on to get profits 82% above the previous record in about three years. The second one, I was not CEO, but Chief Operating Officer at Burger King, which was suffering declining same sort of sales. The parent company was looking to sell it, and we were able to turn around same thing. Get the trend from like minus five to plus five. Get the company restaurants from being some of the lowest-performing in the system to some of the best performing in the system. Third one was at Red Lobster, where the brand had really kind of become dated and suffering declining results, and Wall Street had lost confidence in it. When I joined, there was an analyst report from one of the investment banks titled Dead Lobster. But we were able to build a very comprehensive turnaround that dramatically improved the guest experience and updated the brand, and led to the seven most profitable years that the brand had to date and then went off and did some other things, other assignments at Darden and the parent company at the time. But while I was away, unfortunately, things eroded at Red Lobster, and they decided they were going to either spin it off or sell it. Asked if I wanted to be CEO, so we sold it to a private equity firm. I came back as CEO for a second seven-year stint, it turned out, and we were able to again get it turned around quickly by dealing with solving some of the mistakes that had been made and really improving the kitchen and the quality of the food and building the off-premise business. And then the third turnaround was really one sparked by COVID, where the government required that we closed all of our dining rooms across the U.S.

Ken White

Wow.

Kim Lopdrup

And then, of course, that's not very good for sales in a casual dining restaurant. So we work to triple our off-premise business and make some very rapid pivots to putting in rapid red curbside pickup, touchless delivery. Areas of opportunity and we simplified our business model, and we were able to get through the crisis and refinance the business. And anyway, those are the five turnarounds.

Ken White

Wow. Fantastic. So what's the key to success, so to speak? When you're thinking of a turnaround? What made things work for you?

Kim Lopdrup

Well, by definition, if you're in a turnaround, you're in a crisis, so you have to very quickly take steps that will, first of all, retain your employees. The key ones are going to be successful who are key to making you successful in the future. And so they need to understand what the current situation is because you're going to have to do some tough things, and they need to know why you're going to have to do tough things. They then need to see you've got a solution to the problem pretty quickly because their patience is thin. Actually, I remember with the first turnaround of the international division of Duncan Brands when I took over, they've recently done an employee survey, and an alarming percentage of employees didn't really expect to be there in three years. And it was a situation where we were losing a lot of money because of the financial crisis that had hit Russia and East Asia. But what we were able to do is I took 30 days to decide which of my senior team was going to be on the team.

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Kim Lopdrup

And we then took and to work together with a team to come up with a future plan. Took 30 days, and in that 30 days, we not only simplified the senior team, but we looked at all of our markets around the world based on whether we thought we could have a future there or not. And we looked at the unit economics of the business, the growth potential of the business. Obviously, if there was a lot of growth potential and good economics, we would fund those markets. If it was low potential and bad economics, we would exit those markets. If it was good economics but limited potential, we would support them in a really efficient way. If you had a market with a lot of theoretical potential, but the economics weren't working. You'd figure out, can we change the business model? Japan Baskin Robins Japan was an example of that, where it actually was a public company. And following the bust, they had years of decline in Japan, and the stores had lost average sales, and they'd raise prices to try to make up for it. And we did decline to like half, I think from 500 units to 322, and those 322 were only breaking even. But we were able to figure out we backed into the solution. We said we have to grow. We're operating our factory at way too low utilization. We have to grow. We think we need a 30% ROI to the franchisee to get people to invest to grow. But we're only at break-even right now. We knew we had a new design, a store design that could raise sales 15%, but that wasn't nearly enough, and we've actually backed in to give franchisees 30% ROI. We'd have to cut ice cream prices by 23%, and our J.V. was already only at break-even. So we backed into okay, how do we save money to enable a 23% price reduction? And we went to franchisees and said, tell you what, if you invest to remodel your restaurant to this design, we'll cut your ice cream prices 23%. They all signed up. They all signed up, and we were able to over-deliver on our cost savings targets. And it turned out that 15% sales increase. Well, that was the year one number. It was 20% if you include the year two growth. So we dramatically turned around Japan, there are over 1000 stores now and very profitable.

Ken White

Wow.

Kim Lopdrup

But here's the thing. We took 90 days to implement that plan. So on day 90, we were above break-even again, and we were able to tell communicate to employees why we were going to have to do some painful things but assure them there were no other shoes to drop. And we kept that promise. And surprisingly, on our next employee feedback survey, the percentage of people planning to be with a business in three years had tripled despite the fact there were some tough things. I thought I was going to be viewed as Darth Vader. This is my first time doing it. I thought I was going to be vilified for having to part company with some employees who've been around a long time, which we had to.

Ken White

But like you said to say that no other shoe is going to drop. And then you follow through, that's huge.

Kim Lopdrup

Right, and we saved a lot of jobs we wouldn't have saved had we not taken decisive action.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Kim Lopdrup in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. You know, the great resignation of 2021 continues as record numbers of people are leaving their jobs. Gallup reports, almost half of all professionals in the U.S. have their eyes on other opportunities. If your company or organization is interested in retaining your best people, consider enrolling them in one of our MBA programs for working professionals. William & Mary's online MBA, the part-time MBA, and executive MBA programs are all designed for the professional who works full time. So both the employee and the organization benefit. Employees expect to feel supported by their employers. Show them your organization cares by investing in their growth. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary by visiting wm.edu. Now back to our conversation with Kim Lopdrup, the former CEO of Red Lobster.

Ken White

What's interesting about your store you never said I it was always we. It sounds to me like your team was extremely important to you in this. How do you choose the team? How do you decide?

Kim Lopdrup

Well, first of all, it was a great team. And the interesting thing is, they were all there when I came in as CEO. I had to part company with some people because we had more people than we should have had, and that made it too hard to make decisions. Some of those people had contributed to the problems, frankly. But in life, it's easy to say. I wish I had all perfect people, but yet I'm not one, and I haven't met one. You got to make it work in a turnaround. You really don't have the time to totally rebuild a team. You've got to figure out it's like an Apollo 13 when they had all the systems go out, flight director Gene Kranz says, well, what is working and start with that.

Ken White

What type of motivations involved? If I'm one of those team members, I kind of contributed to getting us in this spot, right? And now you're looking at me to get us out. So, where's the psychology and the motivation? Where's that play into that?

Kim Lopdrup

Well, first of all, you don't go in blaming people. That's completely unproductive. You have to focus on what we're all in this together. Failure is just not an option. For all of us to have jobs, but more importantly than us for all the people in the organization to have jobs, for this organization to have a bright future. We have got to get through this, and you have to be willing to look at all options, including those that are painful. And what's fascinating is what I found is when you explain to the organization what needs to be done and why they actually are willing to accept a pretty high degree of pain to get to a bright future. But you can't come out and just shock them. Like when we were reorganizing, and we were going to make some jobs go away. We didn't just blindside people with it. We actually told them we were going through this process. We were looking. We'd give them an answer on a certain day. Nobody was blindsided. And I think that is so important as you're leading an organization along the way, giving people foreshadowing what the next step is and then directly telling them, so they're not surprised. Credibility is everything, building and maintaining credibility. And to do that, you can't surprise people even on bad news.

Ken White

Yeah. I mean, the trust that builds is incredible. Speed, you're saying 90 days, 30 days, boy, that's fast.

Kim Lopdrup

People can put up with uncertainty, but only for so long. You have to move extremely quickly in dealing with a crisis. Some people are dusting off their resume, sending it to other employers if they're not sure about the future. So you have to compress that time by articulating a clear vision and then following through on it. Now, sometimes you have the problem. Well, gosh, to figure out the very best solution, that's going to take all this research and this time. Well, actually, I had a boss once, Joe Lee at Red Lobster, who once said, if you know, you need to be over in the other corner of the room someplace, but you're not sure the exact spot. You might as well start walking and then figure out the exact spot as you get closer. So on that first turnaround at Red Lobster. Interestingly. We looked at our research, and we said, Gosh, the most important things to consumers are that the food be fresh, that the restaurant be clean, the service be friendly. Those are the three most important things. And our gap versus our targeted competitors was widest on those three things. It was pretty obvious we needed to work on those three things.

Ken White

Yeah.

Kim Lopdrup

And so phase one was fresh, clean, and friendly, and a whole bunch of things designed to enable that. But over time, through research, refined a more precise and more compelling brand vision that was built around that but in far more detail. You remember the old Polaroid pictures where you take the picture, and it's like, well, okay. I think I can see there's sort of a car there, and there's sort of a house over on this other corner. But then it just gets clearer and clearer and clearer. And that's sort of the approach we took. There was a vision, but it was blurry

Ken White

Right.

Kim Lopdrup

in the early days. But then, as we got more research, we were able to clarify it for people and ultimately lead people through a transition that got pretty remarkable improvements in guest satisfaction and allowed us to outperform the industry by a pretty strong margin over a seven-year period.

Ken White

What'd that do to the team? I mean, when you experience something as a team, they tend to get a little closer and turnarounds like that when you come out the other end, a winner. What's that do to team dynamics?

Kim Lopdrup

Well, it obviously helps a lot. When things are not going well, unfortunately, people tend to start pointing fingers at everybody but themselves. But when things are working, people are really happy to take the credit. And I think it is important to give the credit to the team. And I think finger pointing is completely, utterly unproductive. But the other thing is, it builds confidence. When you go through a turnaround, it builds confidence. And one of the things I've learned in life is that because, candidly, when I was a William & Mary student, I wasn't a terribly confident individual. And you started getting some successes, actually, here at William & Mary that built confidence and led to greater challenges that built more confidence. And now I'd say I'm pretty high on that scale. But to lead other people effectively, confidence is actually one of the biggest determinants of success because everybody will have massive challenges and struggles in life. I don't know anybody. I know lots of incredibly successful people. I don't know anybody who hasn't gone through extreme challenges,

Ken White

Sure.

Kim Lopdrup

but what allows them to keep going that they're confident. They can overcome things. People who start companies, they have to be confident, they can succeed, or they won't even try. And to lead other people, people look you in the eye, and they say, do you really believe we can do this? You can't fool them. They can see right there. At least I can't fool them. Having that inner confidence that people can see is absolutely critical to leading others successfully. So it's kind of like Tom Brady just completed his 50th game-winning drive the other day for Tampa, and he's got all these comebacks. But when he gets in these impossible situations, it's like, yeah, we've done that before. No problem.

Ken White

Yup.

Kim Lopdrup

And he just calmly keeps doing what he needs to do. Anyway, those situations build confidence that makes people better equipped for the next challenges that come along.

Ken White

There's always times where the confidence is waning a little bit, right? You're just not feeling super confident tomorrow, as you might feel today. And we all hear about the imposter syndrome. There's got to be times where you're saying I'm right. Right? What do you do in those situations?

Kim Lopdrup

First of all, I'd say choose your assignments wisely because what I found is that if I'm working on something that I truly believe is incredibly important, you start to forget about. Well, what are the risks here? You're doing it because it's important, and it's necessary that you be successful. And when you get to that point, you quit thinking about the risk. But it's really important that you choose an employer, a job, an assignment. That's something you're really passionate about, and say no to those things that you really don't care about because you won't be a great leader unless you are passionate about it.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Kim Lopdrup, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Companies, organizations, and businesses are seeking professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats, the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. Check out the William & Mary MBA program to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding our podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Kim Lopdrup, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Atul Minocha
Atul MinochaEpisode 162: October 6, 2021
Lies, Damned Lies & Marketing

Atul Minocha

Episode 162: October 6, 2021

Lies, Damned Lies & Marketing

What does your CEO think about marketing? Or if you’re the CEO, what do YOU think about marketing? The way CEOs position marketing and the way they partner with the Chief Marketing Officer has a huge effect on results and the bottom line. Unfortunately, though, for many CEOs, marketing is nothing more than a source of frustration. In some cases, the marketing team has overpromised and under delivered. In other cases, the leader struggles with the investment marketing requires. Whatever the case, it can be disappointing to the CEO. But it doesn’t have to be that way. The CEO and CMO can be close partners, working together to generate positive results. Atul Minocha is a partner at Chief Outsiders, a marketing consulting firm. He’s also the author of “Lies, Damned Lies & Marketing,” a book recognized by Inc Magazine as one of 8 books to sharpen your strategic thinking. He says with help, CEOs can understand the benefits of marketing by partnering with their CMO and utilizing their dollars for real results.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn | Spotify

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What was Atul's process for writing "Lies, Damned Lies & Marketing"
  • How COVID affected Atul's consulting practice
  • What drew Atul to the CEO/CMO relationship for his book
  • What causes distrust between CEOs and CMOs
  • The importance of a CMO forging a positive relationship with a CEO
  • Why there's confusion between sales and marketing
  • The difference between "bigger marketing" and "smaller marketing"
  • How involved should a CEO be in their marketing department
Transcript

Atul Minocha: Lies, Damned Lies & Marketing TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. What does your CEO think about marketing, or if you're the CEO, what do you think about marketing? Well, the way CEOs position marketing and the way they partner with the Chief Marketing Officer has a huge effect on results and the bottom line. Unfortunately, though, for many CEOs, marketing is nothing more than a source of frustration. In some cases, the marketing team has overpromised and underdelivered. In other cases, the leader struggles with the investment marketing requires. Whatever the case, it can be disappointing to the CEO, but it doesn't have to be that way. The CEO and CMO can be close partners working together to generate positive results. Atul Minocha is a partner at Chief Outsiders, a marketing consulting firm. He's also the author of Lies, Damned Lies, and Marketing, a book recognized by Inc. Magazine as one of eight books to sharpen your strategic thinking. He says, with help, CEOs can understand the benefits of marketing by partnering with their CMO and utilizing their dollars for real results. Here's our conversation with Atul Minocha.

Ken White

Atul, thank you very much for sharing your time with us. It's nice to see you today. Thanks for being here.

Atul Minocha

Thank you, Dr. White. Glad to be here.

Ken White

Before we dive into the book, we have so many of our listeners who are great professionals and subject matter experts. They could probably write a book. And so I love to ask some of our authors who are our guests. How'd you do it? What was your process of writing?

Atul Minocha

A great question, actually. I think two paths. One is just building up to writing the book and then writing the book. Right. So building up part was that as I was practicing my craft of marketing consulting and helping other businesses use marketing effectively, I discovered that there was a gap in the understanding at the CEO level of what marketing is and what it can do versus what they thought it was. So it's not as if they got it wrong, but they definitely had an incomplete picture. So I kept on sort of saying, These are the things that I need to inform my CEOs about when I get a chance. And of course, I was doing it as I went along, and the list kept growing and growing and growing. But I never put a stop to it because, heck, the list was growing. So you don't want to cut short anything good, right. Then COVID happened. And then I said, you know what? I think now is the time to directly put it in a book form. So that was when the decision was made. Part of my thinking about writing the book was that I felt that my consulting business was going to go down. But actually, it did not. So what happened is when I signed up with the publisher to write the book, my thinking was that I'll have more time. I can write the book, and it could be a good, productive use of my COVID stay-at-home kind of time period. But since it didn't happen that way, I had to switch gears. Now I'm answering the second part of the question as to how did I actually write? So when I had to switch gears, I switched to the process, which was a little more extensive, but it was a little less time-consuming. So instead of literally writing for 2 hours every day, which was what I was beginning to do. I realized that it's much faster if I actually gave an interview or if I spoke to somebody who actually wrote it for me. So for the first two, three, four weeks, the person transcribed so-called scribe, sort of we worked back and forth to make sure that he actually got my voice, he got my tone, he got my style. And then, after all, after all that, it was simply a matter of speaking to him, you know, an hour, an hour and a half, once a week, or twice a week. And that's how the book came about.

Ken White

Excellent. Well, it's fantastic. You know, recently featured in Inc magazine as one of eight books that sharpen your strategic thinking. Boy, that's nice to have that attached to the book. Yeah, it's interesting.

Atul Minocha

It is very nice to be attached to books, which are other books which are on that list. I'm the only first-time author on that list. So I feel, talk about impostor syndrome. I think this is the perfect case of that.

Ken White

So why did you decide to focus on this? This CMO CEO sort of relationship? What was it about that that you like?

Atul Minocha

I think it's extremely important for any CMO to be successful that they have a very positive and a two-way relationship between CEO and CMO. It's not that the CMO has to worship the CEO. CEO also has to have respect for CMO. Otherwise, they're not going to do what the CMO is going to recommend. In my work experience, I realized that it was extremely important to have that positive, healthy relationship, even to the point where if you disagreed, you could say it so and explain why you're disagreeing. And it cuts both ways. And I found that the foundation for that relationship for that healthy relationship was missing in most instances, especially in small to mid-sized companies. Why? Because for various reasons, previous experiences that CEOs had had with marketing was less than positive. So they actually had very low opinion of what marketing is or what marketing can do. And there was a fair bit of misunderstanding. There was a fair bit of gap in understanding. And that was what I was trying to fill in.

Ken White

Why? What causes that this many CEOs to have that less than positive experience? What were some of the issues that you saw?

Atul Minocha

I think there are a few reasons for that. And some of the I don't want to call it blame, but some of the attribution perhaps lies on the CEO side. Much of it lies on the marketing lead side. So on the CEO side, the reason could be that A marketing is if you look at sort of all the MBA kind of functions right. Production, marketing, finance, accounting, HR. Marketing is perhaps the one which is the broadest in terms of you can sort of say this is marketing and that is also marketing. Whereas in most of the functions, it's slightly more narrow. So many CEOs don't have the full understanding of what marketing is. I'll give you an example most CEOs think of marketing as, oh yeah. When I think of website, I think marketing, but when they think of what new products they should launch three years from now, five years from now, they don't think necessarily of marketing. What new markets to go after. They don't think of that as a marketing function. They'd rather talk to the CFO and say, I'm thinking of going to Asia, or I'm thinking I'm going to Lithuania, but they will probably not bring in the marketing guy or Gal. Do you think there's a market for this in Lithuania? So I think there's that sort of incompleteness in CEO's understanding. But then a big part of the attribution for this misunderstanding is on the CMO side, and that's or the marketing lead side that often many of my peers and I'd probably have been guilty of this myself some time in the past. Where I may have overpromised that yup, marketing can do this. Why? Because I just wanted to get out of that hot atmosphere in the CEO's office or get away from the stare of the CEO. Or I was put in that spot in a leadership team meeting where everybody was signing up for something good. And I didn't want to be the only one, as the naysayers. I also said, yeah, I think we can do so. We tend to over-promise sometimes, and that leads to dissatisfaction. So I think those are some of the main causes of why CEOs have had some bad experiences in the past.

Ken White

So what advice do you give to the CMO? We could easily say don't over-promise. But I get that I could see being at the table and saying, I want to add, I want to show my value. How do you coach the CMO in that sort of a situation?

Atul Minocha

The way I would coach the CMOs is that don't be so short-term-focused. In other words, it may be an easy way out for you to say yes and sign up. And then when you get to your office, you yourself are sweating as how the heck am I going to deliver this? It's better to take time, and it's better to actually build that relationship with your CEO. That when you do say no or when you do say we need to rethink this, the CEO has respect for you. He said, you know what, since you are saying it, why don't we spend some time together? Why don't we go out for lunch? And maybe you can explain to me why you think this may not be the best thing. So it really starts by building that relationship or having that relationship so that you can actually explain to the CEO how it actually works, as opposed to simply saying yes, sir, or yes, ma'am.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Atul Minocha in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Our world continues to change, meaning new skills and new approaches are required. Well, those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different formats in the MBA, including the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive, all taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty. The William & Mary MBA will prepare you to succeed and lead in our continuously changing world. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary by visiting wm.edu. Now back to our conversation with Atul Minocha, author of Lies, Damned Lies, and Marketing.

Ken White

Is there any confusion among many CEOs that you've seen between sales and marketing?

Atul Minocha

Oh, absolutely. I mean, on one hand, sales and marketing have to work together. So when people think of sales and marketing, the fact that they say it almost without losing a breath is a good thing. But on the other hand, when people use the word sales and marketing, what they're really saying is sales. And the reason I say that is because sales is about making something happen right away. Marketing is about making something happen, maybe a little bit down the road. So urgent always wins over important, as Steven Covey might say. So sales always wins.

Ken White

Walk us through the book a little bit. What were some of the main topics? What were you trying to get through to your reader in the book?

Atul Minocha

Yeah. If I can share a little secret. And I think I already told you how the book germinated.

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Atul Minocha

So there are about 19 chapters in the book. They did not occur in my head in that sequence. In fact, the first seed was planted in what is now chapter 14 in the book. So sort of that's where it started, and then it kept expanding. So when I started to write the book, I realized that it cannot be sort of a random list of the way it thoughts and my experiences occurred because they occurred in that sequence only based on what kind of projects I was doing when. So there was really no sequence to that other than circumstances. So I broke it up into what we at our company Chief Outsiders called Big M marketing and small M marketing. So let me explain what that is. So small  M marketing is actually the most visible part of marketing. If you talk to anybody who's not from marketing, if you ask them what is marketing, they'll say it's the website, it's the logos, it's the advertising, it's the Facebook thing, it's the LinkedIn thing. It's the fade show. It's the radio ad. It's the Billboard. That is marketing. But the way I look at that is, yes, that is marketing. But that's what we call small M marketing or the tactical side of marketing. But then there's a big M marketing, which is the most strategic foundational part, which is what segments to go after? Who are your segments? What are the customer's pain points? How should you price it? What channels should you use? Those kind of big M marketing questions are very important. So I actually structured my thoughts. Those 19 chapters is in either big M or small M, or the ones that sort of transcend those two put them in the third category of big M and small M, so that's how the book is laid out.

Ken White

Interesting. I'm guessing; correct me if I'm wrong, do some CEOs focus or some CMOS focus on the little M more so than the big M, and could that cause some issues?

Atul Minocha

Absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, I would say nine out of ten CEOs focus on small M. And if you explain to them the big M and small M, they'll say, yeah, intellectually, I agree with you, but I really want you to do this on the small M side. In other words, they don't want to invest the time on the big M because that looks like a little nebulous. What will I get out of that? My answer to that is there's somebody who said 60, 70 of years ago that I know half of the marketing dollars are wasted. The only problem is I don't know which half is wasted. So that's what I use to explain the value of big M. If you just focus on small M, you'll end up with wasting at least half the dollars. If you spend a little bit of time, not too much, a little bit of time, maybe 10% of your overall marketing time and 10% of your overall marketing budget on big M, you are very likely to improve that 50% waste stage down to maybe 20%, maybe 10%. You'll probably never bring it down to zero. But heck, if you can get you know 40 50% improvement on your marketing spend, that's a heck of an ROI.

Ken White

How deep into the spend the details should a CEO be?

Atul Minocha

It really depends on the CEO's personality. Let me sort of turn the question around a little bit. It's not so much how much detail they should get into. What I would like the CEO  to do is get into as much detail as you want, but don't start from the weeds. It would be my point. In other words, let your marketing person have an overview and spend some time both the CEO and the CMO. As to why are we even doing this? Instead of sort of saying, let's get to what can we do in social media? Why aren't we doing social media? Do our prospects at least spend time on social media and with social media? I mean, I've run into so many instances where they'll say, okay, we'll have LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter on our website. But are your prospects or customers even spending time on Instagram? I mean, I have nothing against Instagram, but I'm saying use what's useful, not because everybody is using it. Therefore, I should use it too.

Ken White

That's interesting, and some of your responses, it shows that a close relationship between these two individuals can really pay off. How do you create that? Have you given advice to CEOs on getting closer to the CMO and spending more time?

Atul Minocha

Yeah. So in my current role as a partner in a consulting firm, I work with CEOs. And the truth is that that relationship is, for the most part, very easy to establish because the CEO has hired you. In fact, if that relationship is not there, the project will end pretty soon. So that's kind of an obvious way that if the relationship is there, the project is there. If the relationship is not there, you just part company and go on separate ways. I think the more difficult challenge is in a corporate environment. That you have been hired as the Marketing Director or a Vice President of Marketing or a CMO, and yes, they hired you. So they obviously liked you, and it respected you. But then, over time, you may find that they treat marketing as though that's just a service side of things. Business really doesn't depend on that. Or we lean on the marketing Department when a trade show is coming up or when a new press release has to be made, as opposed to having a strategic seat at that primary leadership table. So that is a more difficult challenge, and you just have to try. You just have to sort of work and make sure that there's deeper understanding on the CEO side of what marketing can deliver. One other point if I may make on this is that what can really help to build that relationship is that instead of answering the question of what marketing can do, answer the question, what marketing can do for the business. In other words, don't make it a marketing thing. Make it a business thing. Why? Because the CEO is really not interested in a marketing award. CEO is interested in the business achieving certain goals. So put your services, marketing services, translate the value of that in terms of the business as opposed to that it's just good for marketing.

Ken White

If there was one takeaway you'd like readers to have after reading the book, what might that be?

Atul Minocha

I'll give you two cause the two are related.

Ken White

Great.

Atul Minocha

One is don't discard marketing in spite of your bad experiences. Marketing is extremely important, and the related part that I would say is that if you read the book, you will find ways you can actually use marketing very effectively in spite of your bad experiences. So A don't throw the marketing away, and B, there are really nice, creative, simple ways by which you can extract more value out of marketing.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Atul Minocha, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Companies, organizations, and businesses are seeking professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats, the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. Check out the William & Mary MBA program to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding our podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, thoughts, and questions with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest at Atul Minocha and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 JD Due
JD DueEpisode 161: September 21, 2021
Transitioning from the Military

JD Due

Episode 161: September 21, 2021

Transitioning from the Military

Every year over 200,000 U.S. military personnel separate from active duty. Transitioning servicemen and women cite a number of reasons and motivations for their departures For example, they may be retirement eligible, others have completed their service agreements, some are seeking a career change. For others, the move is related to family. Whatever the reason, transitioning from the military to the civilian world is challenging. According to militarytransition.org, about half of all veterans say their transition was more difficult than expected. Not surprising when you consider their entire world, in essence, changed. JD Due is the Executive Director of the Center for Military Transition at William & Mary. The center is located in the William & Mary School of Business and was created to help active duty and veteran students at the university successfully navigate their transactions. He joins us today to discuss military transitions, the importance of networking, and how a successful transition includes patience, and a plan.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn | Spotify

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • How JD got into the field of military transitioning
  • Why is it difficult for military personnel to transition to civilian life
  • How military personally can identify who they want to be as a civilian
  • The importance of having mentors while transitioning
  • What are the commonalities for people who are transitioning out of the military
  • What is different for everybody as they enter civilian life
  • When should one start thinking about their transition out of the military
  • What can companies and organizations do to help service members in the workplace
  • What services does the Center for Military Transition offer
Transcript

JD Due: Transitioning from the Military TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. This is Leadership & Business. The podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Every year, over 200,000 U.S. Military personnel separate from active duty. Transitioning servicemen and women site a number of reasons and motivations for their departures. For example, they may be retirement eligible. Others have completed their service agreements. Some are seeking a career change. For others, the move is related to family. Whatever the reason, transitioning from the military to the civilian world is challenging. According to militarytransition.org, about half of all veterans say their transition was more difficult than expected. Not surprising when you consider their entire world, in essence, changed. JD Due is the Executive Director of the Center for Military Transition at William & Mary. The center is located in the William & Mary School of Business and was created to help active duty and veterans students at the University successfully navigate their transitions. He joins us today to discuss military transitions, the importance of networking, and how a successful transition includes patience and a plan. Here's our conversation with JD Due.

Ken White

JD, thanks very much for sharing your time. Great to see you in person. Thanks very much for being here.

JD Due

Absolutely. It's interesting. One of the I guess positive upsides what is a catastrophe, and the pandemic is that you find out that people are ready to be together, right? To be a part of a community. You find out who's maybe not normally a hugger, and they might be a little bit more of a hugger. And again, keeping all those things in mind. But it is wonderful to be here in person. So thank you for having me.

Ken White

No, our pleasure. So as the Executive Director of the Center for Military Transition, what an interesting job. How did you even get into the field? Where did that start?

JD Due

Well, I've always been a fan and a friend of serendipity, right. In some cases, I literally stumbled into the field of myself, and it starts out biographically. Whenever I was at the culmination of my 20 years in the Army, I was actually granted an extraordinary opportunity. I was working at the Pentagon. I had been there for just a little bit over a year, but the US Chamber of Commerce had a what they described as a corporate fellowship program. And really, within my last six months of active duty, I got to spend twelve weeks with one of their corporate partnerships, and I was in a program manager role, and I worked in that civilian firm while the Army still took care of pay and housing and all of the wonderful things that the Army can take care of. But I was a program manager for four days out of the week, and then on the fifth day, the Chamber of Commerce would organize different transition skill-building events. And so there were about 25 of us going through this program at the same time. So we were able to share experiences, good and bad. And then we went to these different host companies. And the HR element of Deloitte gave us a rundown of what resumes should look like. If you're interested to go into consulting. Amazon gave us a rundown of if you want to go through an intensive interview process. Here are different sort of skills to refine. And in the midst of that process, about two weeks in, I realized I was in a role I did not want to be in beyond that fellowship. But what I discovered is this desire of what I really wanted to do is run a program to assist veterans in transitioning broadly. And that's sort of how I came into this place as well as then simultaneously and again; this is where serendipity comes in. A colleague whom I had never met but had been closely associated with on LinkedIn shared an opportunity that was the Pat Tillman Foundation. I saw the job description. I shared it with my wife. She looked at me. She's like, hey, don't mess this up. This seems like a great opportunity. And it was. And that's how I got into this business of providing resources, conceived broadly to assist veterans transition into a new chapter of service.

Ken White

Fantastic story. And I know just in the short time you've been here, how the active-duty military and the student body just love to talk with you and interact with you. The transition is a big deal for everybody, but especially for people in the military. Why is that?

JD Due

Well, for one, I think the military is a huge and complex organization, right? I mean, one of the joys in the national treasures that the all-volunteer force is. Is it has an opportunity to bring people from many different parts of the country and many different backgrounds together. And so, even students that are in the military on active duty now, part of the reason why the Army or the Navy or the Coast Guard send them here is actually broaden their experience. So they're going through a transition themselves, of moving from maybe a tactical focus in the Army to then helping out the institutional level of how does the army conduct marketing for these broad institutional pieces? So that's one of it. But then, over the past, really 40 years of the all-volunteer force, each of these services have a very strong culture process, right. When you go into the Army, you'll spend six, sometimes up to twelve or 18 weeks in any one of the services learning your job. And just the first thing isn't even learn your job in the military is to learn how to be a soldier or a sailor or a Marine. And then when you leave, you don't have that benefit of time always, right. That was the key thing that fellowship program I was a part of. It gave me additional time to ask really big questions of how does my identity fit in a new culture? And those are really important first-order questions to try and address. And that's, I think, a key element of the challenge that's there. And it applies to any human being, but particularly in the military, right.

Ken White

Right.

JD Due

The military helps you choose what to wear when you go to work, right. We can joke and chuckle about that. But there's so much of that regimentation and framework that's there that sometimes it can be very challenging when you're entering a realm that doesn't have that same framework.

Ken White

You and I were talking earlier before we started to record, and you said for many transitioning military personnel, it's not what do I want to be is who do I want to be in that transition? How do you figure that out when you're trying to transition?

JD Due

Well, I think one of the best ways to sort of figure that out. And it is probably I think it is the question. It is the first-order question to figure out. I think you figure it out in the context of a community. You figure out in terms of introspective questions. If you're asking yourself, what does light my fire, what are my interests, what are my strengths? But then, if you're able to do that in a community where you have allies, where you have other people within that network, mentors this case here professors to be able to ask those questions of and get feedback. I think that's a really, really important mechanism because by communicating those pieces, it helps you really refine not only what your experiences mean, and it helps translate that, which is great on a resume. But that's not the first-order question. It really helps you understand, hey, what are different areas that I can move to, that I can still serve, that I can still be a leader, but doing so in a new context.

Ken White

When you look overall at the types of folks who have served our country, male, female, older, younger, a long amount of service, a shorter amount of service. What are some of the similarities they face in their transition? What are some of the differences among all those various different groups?

JD Due

Well, I think some of the similarities that they face is the fact that they will have unique experiences that also occurred in the unique context. So similarities are the challenge of taking those experiences and translating them to new context, right. That is, I think, one of the key challenges, and it is generally universal across the veteran community to be able to clearly articulate. This is how I can be a asset to assist any organization, be it one that wears uniforms or one that does not. Solve problems and do so in a creative manner. And I think in a lot of ways. And although it might not be at the forefront of their tongues, they actually have a lot of creativity that the military has so much regimentation and framework it's because it's designed to operate in the realm of chaos and uncertainty.

Ken White

Right.

JD Due

This was as true for the Greeks as it was for the Persians as it is for us. It is just madness and chaos, and being able to take some of those unique experiences and put it into new context actually is both the challenge and an opportunity that's there. Now the difference is is that just like anyone else, the members of the military are unique. The way that they process the experiences that are there are going to occur in wildly different manners. So the stereotypes that might exist really, really don't necessarily apply. And one of the challenges that the Department of Defense has been doing a lot of good work really over the past six or seven years to refine their transition assistance programs. But the Department of Defense is a big, big Bureau. It is a big organization, and some of those processes tend to be a bit generic. So if you're able to look at an experience that then has very personalized transition plans and to have centers and programs help an individual piece those different things together. That's where some of those differences occur.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with JD Due in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Today's world requires new skills and new approaches. Well, those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different MBA formats, including the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive, all taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty. The William & Mary MBA will prepare you to succeed and lead in our new world. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary by visiting wm.edu. Now back to our conversation with JD Due, Executive Director of William and Mary's Center for Military Transition.

Ken White

When you're talking to someone who's serving, and they know at some point there will be a transition. When should they start thinking and doing? When do you start acting on your transition? How many months? How many years?

JD Due

Yeah. The thinking probably starts now, right at any point in time. And it's really interesting. Here one of the wonderful joys, and it's really a gift that William & Mary is able to bring. It's collaboration with the Army and the Major General James Wright fellowship. So these are fellows that come from a highly selective process in the Army, and they're at the midpoint of their army career. So they probably have at least ten, sometimes 15 years of additional service. But it's also an important transition and an inflection point in their career. They will be moving from doing direct leadership-type tasks to then be part of this broader institutional basis. And again, the Army, the Navy, the Coast Guard. These services are large institutions as they exist. And as they make that transition, it also gives an opportunity for them to really build and diversify all the resources and the human resources that they have contact with, right. They look within the Marine Corps or the Air Force. They're going to have a long list of folks that they can count on as allies and mentors. Well, a trip here as that broadening assignment as the military will often call it. Helps them to broaden that network. And it does so in a way that's actually transformational and not transactional. And so by starting to think about, hey, how can I maintain relationships that could benefit my service, could benefit and augment my service to my country? How can that also then establish a relationship that creates future opportunities whenever that time comes? And it always does come regardless of the rank that you depart. Where it's time to unlace the boots and hang up the uniform, and then probably within about 24 months, that's when serious series planning should really be initiated. To answer the more specific questions of what industry do I want to go into? Is that industry more important to where I want to live and to do that in a systematic manner? Just to be able to reduce some of the variables and a really, really complex equation that they're going to have to deal with.

Ken White

And there are opportunities and programs for those serving that they can experience to kind of get them moving on their transition?

JD Due

Absolutely. Again, one of the current ones and it grew out of the program that I was able to participate in back in 2018. It's called SkillBridge, the Department of Defense SkillBridge program, and it is oriented to a wide array of military personnel. Some that have been enlisted personnel. And sometimes, that might mean that they are then transitioning to get a bachelor's degree. Officers commissioned officers s have to have a bachelors degree already, but then it allows them to be in a position to get a professional degree, a Masters or even higher degree, to again add aspects of specificity to their skill set, to be able to again address those challenges and opportunities of what comes next.

Ken White

Many of our listeners are professionals, leaders and managers, business owners. What can companies and organizations do in terms of the transition to help to get involved, to bring veterans on board?

JD Due

Well, I think one of the key aspects is A recognizing that the service members are actually an integral part of their community, and they always have been, right. One of the huge benefits is the G.I. Bill. So when we think about 1944, in terms of military history, massive things are going on. There's an invasion of Normandy. There's the Battle of the Bulge. The tide is turning against the Nazi regime. But at the same time, we're passing the G.I. Bill, and that's really significant. So at the height of combat in World War II, Congress actually has the foresight to establish this program that allows the reintegration of a very, very huge army compared to what the size of the military is today back into the civilian world. We still have elements of that going on right now. The post 911 GI bill is a wonderful benefit that is really, really geared towards, you know, MBA programs. Towards law degree programs in terms of the amount of time and benefits that folks have. And so for companies to be able to look at those opportunities as well as even inside their own companies, they're going to find, oh, wow. I didn't realize that this leader that she was a Marine Corps veteran.

Ken White

Right.

JD Due

And yet those human beings are going to be there listening to them in terms of their own stories as well as listening to our students and clearly communicating, I think, is the answer of how folks can help best.

Ken White

So tell us about the Center for Military Transition. This is new at William & Mary. We've always had a I call it a love affair between the military and William & Mary. It's been going on forever. But we've got a good number of servicemen and women here in our school, undergrad, and graduate programs. But this is a big deal. Tell us about the Center for Military Transition.

JD Due

It is and Bob Merkle who's the Special Assistant to the University President on Military Affairs. He talks about William & Mary that we have an abundance of riches. And he's absolutely true. Dean Pulley talks about that. Active duty and service members have always been this integral part of the Mason School and this broader community. And it's really this element on opportunity for the Center of Military Transition to integrate all of these things that the Mason School does so well, right. You know, when we look at professional business education, when we look at leadership development, this development of skills, mentorship programs is what the executive partners are able to provide for life. Those are all the key contributors of a really world-class transition program. And that's what makes this opportunity so exciting. All the necessary factors are here. And then, the center can help to integrate those and again right-size them to a personalized experience. That's really the huge opportunity that we have. And I think it will be differential. It'll make a huge difference in the lives of the student veterans that are here. It will help inform students that are coming through the Mason School that have no or very little exposure to the military as well. And that is the wonderful aspect of this ecosystem that can really make a big difference.

Ken White

And working with those who will be transitioning soon and maybe not so soon.

JD Due

Exactly. And again, you can almost think of it as a timeline. And for those that are coming out of the military, they are used to some very regimented timelines. They know hey within X number of months at some point in time at 42 months, I was going to receive a promotion, right? Why it was 42 months and not 48. I'm not quite sure. But how can we then create similar timelines that might not be as regimented because they don't need to be mindful and to take advantage of the plethora of opportunities that are out there? But what are different steps that someone can do? How can they take something that might come out of a course that they take in the first two months here and then the center can help extend some of the tools that they're building with their professors and then link those in with potential employers and where a student wants to go. Again I think that's what's really, really exciting as we both develop individuals and then empower them to really be able to serve and to lead and to be the assets that they have the potential to be in a wide variety of companies.

Ken White

That's our conversation with JD Due, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Companies, organizations, and businesses are seeking professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats, the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. Check out the William & Mary MBA program to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guests, JD Due, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Phil Wagner
Phil WagnerEpisode 160: September 7, 2021
Stepping Up Your D&I Efforts

Phil Wagner

Episode 160: September 7, 2021

Stepping Up Your D&I Efforts

In the last decade, the interest in Diversity & Inclusion has grown significantly at companies and organizations. For the most par D&I has been accepted: It's seen as a positive contributor to employee engagement, employee retention, company culture, and a healthy bottom line. While D&I has become mainstream, not every organization has it figured out. For some, Diversity & Inclusion efforts are simply transactional - a series of workshops or lectures delivered by a vendor. Our guest today says it needs to be transformative in order to make a real difference. In other words, D&I vocabulary and knowledge should be shared among all employees and leaders as a supportive and inclusive culture organically grows. Phil Wagner is a Clinical Assistant Professor of Management Communication at William & Mary's School of Business. He teaches communication and D&I to undergraduate and graduate business students in addition to working professionals. He says, while considerable progress has been made in the D&I space, there are still opportunities for professionals, leaders, and organizations to be more effective.

Building upon other D&I experts' work, particularly Jennifer Brown's How to be an Inclusive Leader, Aiko Bethea's work on transactional vs. transformational D&I leadership, and Brene Brown's Dare to Lead, this discussion focuses on practical takeaways that leaders can employ to demonstrate their commitment to inclusion.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What's the difference between a D&I transactional model vs. a transformative model
  • What is the role of the leader/CEO/boss when it comes to D&I efforts
  • How can authenticity help when considering D&I work
  • How can leaders best prepare themselves when approaching D&I
  • What is the role of a D&I officer
  • Who makes a good D&I officer
  • How does one train to be a D&I officer
  • How do you teach D&I to leaders/employees/students
  • What is Phil's new podcast "Diversity Goes to Work"
Transcript

Phil Wagner: Stepping Up Your D&I Efforts TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. This is Leadership & Business. The podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. In the last decade, the interest in diversity and inclusion has grown significantly at companies and organizations. For the most part, D&I has been accepted. It's seen as a positive contributor to employee engagement, employee retention, company culture, and a healthy bottom line. While D&I has become mainstream, not every organization has it figured out. For some, diversity and inclusion efforts are simply transactional, a series of workshops or lectures delivered by a vendor. Our guest today says it needs to be transformative in order to make a real difference. In other words, D&I vocabulary and knowledge should be shared among all employees and leaders. As a supportive and inclusive culture organically grows. Phil Wagner is a Clinical Assistant Professor of Management Communication at William & Mary's School of Business. He teaches communication and D&I to undergraduate and graduate business students in addition to working professionals. He says while considerable progress has been made in the D&I space, there are still opportunities for professionals, leaders, and organizations to be more effective. Here's our conversation with Professor Phil Wagner.

Ken White

Well, Phil, thanks for taking the time to join us. Great to see you. Isn't it nice to be in person?

Phil Wagner

It is nice to be back in person.

Ken White

And you're in the classroom because classes have started. How's it been?

Phil Wagner

Filled to capacity 118 bright MBAs so eager to be there, you can feel the energy. It's great.

Ken White

It is it's so fun. So thanks. It's a busy week. Thank you for joining us. D&I DE&I your area this is something you teach, something you're passionate about. We were talking earlier before we started recording, when I said to you, What's the difference between doing this? Maybe right and wrong? And you said there's a transactional model and a transformative model. What does that mean?

Phil Wagner

Number one, I think we back up and say there's just so many different models. Look at the terminology D&I, DIEO, DIEB. I mean, it's constantly iterative. And you look at how things have developed, particularly over the last 20 or so years. It's been a rapidly changing conversation along that rapid sequence of change. I don't think we've paused to make sense of all of the pieces.

Ken White

Right.

Phil Wagner

We know we have to do diversity, equity, and inclusion work, but I don't think we've stepped back to ask what that really means. And so we've done a lot of that transactional stuff. We have built a culture in which we say D&I matters. So I'm going to put on four different lunch and learns. I'm going to have another training on microaggressions. I'm going to do X, Y, and Z. I've done a lot of programming. I've collected a lot of data, and we say, let's respond to that. And so what you've done is we created this culture where people are shamed into participation. They're guilted into participation. They're pushed into participation because we say this is important. But we never stop to explain why. And so where we need to get to, I truly believe, is to really focus on that why. To move from transaction to a more transformational model, one that really stops and asks, Why are we doing the things that we're here to do? And I think that transformational model doesn't build a culture in response to D&I. It says we first build our diversity. We first focus intentionally on inclusion, on support, on culture. Once we've got those locked and loaded, we've invited everybody to participate. That can then be a transformational experience, one that's harder to push back against and one that's inclusive for everybody to get involved.

Ken White

Where does the leader, the CEO? Where does the head honcho? What's the role of that individual in these efforts?

Phil Wagner

I think that's another misconception we tell ourselves. We think a lot about diversity and inclusion crises. Somebody getting canceled, somebody who makes an inappropriate sexual comment. Cuomo being a great example recently. You've done something, and you sort of tap out. I think we think that in times of diversity and inclusion crises, it's going to be human resources and public relations. HR and PR are they're going to swoop in. They're going to save the day. And I, as a leader, get to sort of just step back and let them do the work. And that's a fundamental misconception. As a leader in the current climate in which we exist, you have to have the vocabulary of inclusive leadership communication. You have to have a knowledge of what the current D&I issues are. You have to have a hand on the pulse of the political and social climate. You are hiring people in that climate. You have people in your organization. We're clocking in nine to five who come in from that climate. So you've got to be well prepared to orchestrate a culture that recognizes it's complicated out there. You got to reflect that complication in here with the nuance of our D&I work.

Ken White

And in the past six to eight to twelve months, we've had several instances where leaders have had to react and say something about what's happening in the real world. That's where that vocabulary, knowledge, and understanding comes into play.

Phil Wagner

Yeah, this is about storytelling. Right.

Ken White

Yeah, it is.

Phil Wagner

As a leader, you need to be able to tell the right story and accurate story and authentic story that exists in response to the public because that public is comprised of storytellers who can get out ahead of you if you're not telling the right story. And so they're increasingly looking for you to figure out how all these things merge, how they align.

Ken White

You thought you talk about authenticity; how does that? What do you mean by that?

Phil Wagner

I think it's a variable that's often missing in D&I work because it's so cheap for us. It's easy to put on again. Those lunch and learns those microaggression trainings, and so that's devoid of an authentic connection, particularly for the leaders who are putting them on. You need to be the person that the people in your organization look to set the tone for inclusion there. And so that's going to require some work on your end, some uncomfortable, deep digging, some self-reflection, certainly some time. But all of those things are definitely going to work out to make you a better leader in the end. Beyond just increasing your D&I knowledge, they're going to make you more self-reflective. You're going to have a better pulse on the culture within your organization. All of this, though it takes work certainly worth the effort.

Ken White

I would assume some CEOs are afraid. I mean, that's tough to step into some of these issues. Afraid that I might offend this group or not offend that group. What have you? A tough spot to be in at times.

Phil Wagner

Yeah, because things have transpired so rapidly again past 20 years. Look at everything has happened post 911, just politically, socially. The conversation has changed so quickly. It's gone in so many different directions. We have terminology that's on the spot, introduced in 1 second and 20 minutes later, it's expired. It is bewildering to do this work. It requires a significant amount of vulnerability. There's some significantly discomfortable, uncomfortable, I should say, conversations that need to happen. And I don't think we've appropriately prepared people to have those leaders in the making. I don't think MBA programs historically have done a good job of isolating space to really focus in on these issues. And so you've got a generation of leadership that knows that this is important. I truly believe wants to engage in it. They simply don't have the toolkit. They don't have the knowledge to do this well. So, the authenticity piece, how can it be authentic? Because it's changed so much?

Ken White

What are D&I officers doing today? What are they spending their time on?

Phil Wagner

I think D&I officers spend most of their time helping leaders set an agenda. So they work in the nuances of data gathering and collection. But they're also going back to what we talked about with storytelling, helping leaders tell the right story. And I think what D&I leaders are struggling with is that rapidly changing climate, and they're helping those leaders who have not been historically well prepared learn how to deal with the real raw issues in the professional setting. We like to think that the world of work is an apolitical context. Excuse me, but you don't get the luxury of clocking in nine to five and forgetting about discrimination or me too or pay inequity or all of the issues that our employees bring to the world of work. So it's doing a deep dive into sort of that human-oriented perspective that I think D&I officers help leaders get to.

Ken White

A tough job.

Phil Wagner

A tough job, a job that can be fundamentally rewarding and also humiliating, exhausting, because, in many ways, you're always wrong. I mean, you're always outdated because this is a conversation that never has no endpoint. It's constantly growing. It is iterative. And there are so many different pockets or factions of people that have ideas about diversity and inclusion. Who's right, who's wrong? We're always looking for that binary, black or white, right or wrong. This is a space where that doesn't really exist, aside from some significant extremes. And so this is about equipping people to toil in that nuance to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. That's a core component of our curriculum here to take initiative to say; this is all so complicated. What do I do? And to rest in that but to be able to lead through that with clarity and transparency, and authenticity.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Phil Wagner in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Our post COVID world will require new skills and new approaches, and those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different MBA formats, including the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive, all taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty. The William & Mary MBA will prepare you to succeed and lead in our new world. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary. Now back to our conversation with Phil Wagner.

Ken White

Who makes a good D&I officer today? I mean, some jobs, that job description is so easy, right? The qualifications so simple. Where do we begin with D&I officers?

Phil Wagner

I think a D&I officer has to know that they want to be a D&I officer. Has a strong understanding of the realities of that position, how it has come to be as a sort of now permanent fixture in most successful organizations, and a person that understands that that job description is going to update constantly. As the world around it updates. But I also think that this is work beyond just becoming a D&I officer. I think in many ways, we now have an organizational sphere that expects that every new hire, every emerging leader, every C-suite executive has that knowledge and that vocabulary of diversity and inclusion. So while this focus is good for D&I officers, I really think it's an important focus for everybody because, again, the public is looking to the organizational sphere, and they're expecting people who are succeeding and thriving and becoming leaders in that sphere to have this knowledge, to respond to the climate, to speak the language of diversity and inclusion.

Ken White

So how does that C-suite member or someone knocking on the C-suite door? How do they get the information? What's a good way to train and be well versed so that you're as comfortable as possible in this space.

Phil Wagner

Yeah, this is such a cheesy answer, and it's simplistic, and it's not to be a land-all. But take some time to read. I mean, you have now so many new spaces of knowledge that are being published, new authors of color, new books, new blogs, new initiatives solely dedicated to these conversations. Uncomfortable conversations, conversations on inclusion conversation that take really age-old ideas, but update them for where we are in the here and now. So as a leader, quiet yourself. Spend some time in your own self-development process, dedicating some of that content to this and also another cheesy answer. But as a communicator, I think it has great value. Take some time to talk to your people. Get a pulse for what the culture and the climate is at your organization. That's not just a culture and a climate conversation. That's a diversity and inclusion conversation. Your people, I think, will often reveal to you where you can focus your energy to make that world of work a more inclusive place for all.

Ken White

We hear our Dean Larry Pulley say it because he does that. He'll listen. He says it over and over again. I learned something new. I had no idea. I never thought about it that way. So those conversations, they get anything, are huge.

Phil Wagner

And you have to have that growth mindset because it's really easy to retreat into a shell and be offended or feel like your ideas are outdated; therefore, you are outdated. I mean, you have to be ready for growth, and you have to be ready to encounter ideas that you don't agree with and be willing to not quite know what to do with those. That disagreement there's this great tweet Adam Grant, who's at Wharton, talked about this actually on Twitter this week, and he says, intellectual friction it's not a relationship bug. So just because you find yourself in an uncomfortable conversation in the context of your organization, with people who are bringing new ideas that you have not fully yet grappled with. See that as something of great value, that vulnerable space. You can do a lot with that. And that friction can be actualized for some great good. So again, it goes back to get comfortable with becoming uncomfortable regularly.

Ken White

So you do this for the MBA students. You teach this? What are some of the ideas and some of the lessons that you're trying to get across to these leaders in training?

Phil Wagner

We do this for our full-time MBAs, part-time MBAs, our executive MBAs, our Masters of Accounting students. We teach it to our undergrads. We really strive to have this be an iterative conversation. We don't want to just jump into D&I for D&I sake. Because we're doing what we say we shouldn't be doing, which is just that transaction this matters here do this, and you're good. Well, that's not really how it works. So we start with a very personal place. We work with our students to tell and sell their story well. We help them find their why and speak from it. And that's a really prime space to explore that inclusion element because once a student knows who they are and they've gotten into contact with that framework of empathy, that's required to hear and receive other people's stories and do something with it. Well, then they're primed to move into the D&I space. So we do give them what we think is a modern and helpful language or vocabulary of diversity and inclusion. What do those terms mean? How did they come to be? How has this come to be such a thing in the management enterprise? We give them a history, we give them a vocabulary, and then we give them space to test that out. So we talk about what it means to be an inclusive leader. And then, we talk about what it means to be an inclusive organization. The purpose of an organization is no longer to just generate profit. That original conception always had a clause, which was that holds true as long as the rules of the game are acknowledged. Well, the rules have changed. The rules now require that we have a vocabulary and a knowledge of this work. So we teach our students to go out and engage in that. So we talk about it through public relations. We talk about it through crisis management. In all of those different facets, students are getting an inclusion focus that can only help them in their career. And I think that's really the key point. Focusing on this can certainly help you, and it can't really hurt you. It's only going to make you better in the end, both as a leader and as an organization. So we spend time preparing our students to do just that.

Ken White

Because we know anybody who they're going to employ wants it and expects it moving forward.

Phil Wagner

Expects it, and we'll ask them what they can contribute to that enterprise, and we want them to be ready to say here are some action-oriented items that I'm bringing to your organization. I have a full understanding of what this is, what it involves. Here's how I'm going to roll up my sleeves and help.

Ken White

So you're going to share your expertise, your interest in diversity with a new podcast. It will be launched literally days from now is we're recording on the 3 September. Diversity Goes to Work. Tell us about it, that's exciting.

Phil Wagner

Yeah, really exciting. This came to be after multiple conversations, and our goal is really simple. We want to have casual conversations with friends most of the time. That's really two strangers on the podcast and the process of becoming friends. And that plays out in a really nice way. We've got Alum, we've got experts from all across the nation and the world, and Diversity Goes to Work really tries to push past the noise of diversity and inclusion efforts. And we're not talking diversity strategy necessarily. We're not talking a list of things to do or don't do. What we're doing is really simple. We're cutting right to the heart of the issue, and we're taking a human-oriented lens and using it to examine this work. So really, it's a storytelling podcast. We're bringing people who have lived this experience either as a diversity consultant, somebody with a diverse background, somebody who's experienced this in the real world and is coming back to offer their insights on our podcast. And so we're going to kick things off with an alum of the College, Amandeep Sidhu is coming to speak on what it's like now 20 years post 911. Amandeep is of the Sikh faith, a turban-wearing professional who has had a very successful legal career. And he's got a great story on that first episode of on 911 working in DC, just minutes after the plane hit the towers, experiencing that same sense of collective grief that we all felt as Americans. Yet just minutes after that, being run off the road by a truck because he had Brown skin. And so that duality of identity. We really center that here throughout the podcast will be bringing in consultants, professionals, everyday laypeople, blue-collar, white-collar, C-suite executives, everyday people really with the focus of centering that human element that I think is so often devoid of our D&I work.

Ken White

So we'll hear a lot of stories from a lot of interesting people.

Phil Wagner

Lots of stories from a lot of interesting people with the focus on strategy in the end. Now that we know this, now that we're aware that there's so many different perspectives that we have to grapple with as leaders, what do we take that? And how do we move it forward to actually implement successful D&I work that has real value, in the end, isn't just cheap frivolity.

Ken White

Yeah. What are you hoping listeners get from this?

Phil Wagner

Engagement number one in a low-stakes way, if you pull up a diversity podcast, you never know what you're going to get with us. It's pretty clear. You're going to get to hear real stories, real ideas that come from people who have experienced the discrimination that we talked about, the disenfranchisement that we talk about. But you'll hear it in an accessible way, and it's really an opportunity for learning, me included. So I'm not there as an expert. I'm there to learn from these stories as well. And that's what I love. I have emerged from every single one of those podcast recordings with my mind blown of new perspectives that I have not yet been able to fully understand because I've never walked in those shoes. So, that's really our goal.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Phil Wagner, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Companies, organizations, and businesses are seeking professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats, the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. Check out the William & Mary MBA program to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Phil Wagner, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Christopher Lee
Christopher LeeEpisode 159: August 20, 2021
Performance Conversations

Christopher Lee

Episode 159: August 20, 2021

Performance Conversations

The annual employee review. The performance evaluation. The employee appraisal. Whatever you call it, in many organizations, the process of evaluating employee performance is often ineffective. In many instances, the evaluations do little to help the employee, the supervisor, or the organization. Among other things, employees are rarely satisfied with the score they receive, and they find it challenging to write a self-evaluation when they know it may be tied to their future compensation. And while evaluations and appraisals have not evolved significantly over the years, working professionals have. They seek feedback, coaching, and support. And many professionals want to perform better and feel better about their work. Knowing that, the old evaluation system is changing. Christopher Lee is a long-time Human Resources professional and leader. He's the Chief Human Resources Officer at William & Mary, and the author of "Performance Conversations." He joins us today to explain how conversations and questions can be used to coach employees, improve productivity, and boost confidence all without appraisals.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn | Spotify

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • Why don't traditional employee appraisals work
  • What happens to an employee when they hear negative feedback
  • How can an employee/supervisor relationship change during evaluations
  • What are The Power of Questions
  • What is a Performance Conversation
  • How the self evaluation is fundamentally flawed
  • What are the goals of the seven Performance Questions
  • The importance of checklists
  • How are bonuses and raises tied to the structure of a performance conversation
  • The difference between managing performance and rating performance
Transcript

Christopher Lee: Performance Conversations TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. This is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. The annual Employee Review, The Performance Evaluation, the employee appraisal, whatever you call it. In many organizations, the process of evaluating employee performance is often ineffective. In many instances, the evaluations do little to help the employee, the supervisor, or the organization. Among other things, employees are rarely satisfied with the score they receive, and they find it challenging to write a self-evaluation when they know it may be tied to their future compensation. And while evaluations and appraisals have not evolved significantly over the years, working professionals have. They seek feedback, coaching, and support. And many professionals want to perform better and feel better about their work. Well, knowing that the old evaluation system is changing. Christopher Lee is a longtime human resources professional and leader. He's the chief human resources officer at William & Mary and the author of Performance Conversations. He joins us today to explain how conversations and questions can be used to coach employees, improve productivity, boost confidence, all without appraisals. Here's our conversation with Chris Lee.

Ken White

Chris, thanks very much for being with us today. It's great to have you here.

Christopher Lee

My pleasure.

Ken White

And face to face, too.

Christopher Lee

Yes. Absolutely. Three dimensions.

Ken White

Yeah, which is really great. So one of the things you say is those employee appraisals that so many professionals grew up with

Christopher Lee

Yup.

Ken White

just never did work and never will work. Why not? What's wrong with them?

Christopher Lee

Yeah. I think for me, it's the fundamental underpinnings of them really were never aligned with their supposed purposes. Right. So as an example, it's called performance management as an example. But you can't manage past performance. I mean, you can only reflect upon past performance. So we talked about managing performance. Truthfully, it was performance documentation, accountability, record keeping, and negative reinforcement because the assumption was that if I tell you you didn't do well, you'll do better. But we missed the part of well, why didn't I do well? What do you mean? How do I adjust from that? And the whole framework, the set up of the once-a-year, some people call it the bloodletting, wasn't the space to have that conversation because once people received negative feedback, they shut down because it was also contingent upon so many other things. That 1-hour meeting, that half-hour meeting, whatever it was, was going to determine whether you got the minivan or not. Right. So you come to that conversation with hopes of getting a promotional opportunity, a raise, or many other things, and you got some negative feedback. Right. And you knew that negative feedback meant okay. I don't get a 4..8. I get a 4.6. In my organization, that means I get less pay well; I'm a 4.2, and why? And then you want to say, let's talk about getting improving? Well, I'm in shock.

Ken White

Yeah, yeah.

Christopher Lee

Some people in tears, right, you know, and all kinds of research shows that it's just not the time and space and who gets excited about planned, constructive criticism. I mean, all the research shows people had tremendous anxiety and fear. It's like, okay. You know, Chris, I got some negative feedback for you. How about let's wait till Thursday, and we're going to talk about it. The whole setup was fundamentally flawed at the beginning.

Ken White

In both ways, for the supervisor and the employee. Right. Because the supervisor, it's pretty high-stress situation.

Christopher Lee

Absolutely. Mcgregor said it best. Mcgregor is like 1954 quote, and he talked about why appraisals aren't good, and they shouldn't work. But we ignored that. He basically said that no supervisor, if they were informed, would want to sit as a judge of their subordinates because they wouldn't understand the impact. An the example would be a judge. If someone you don't know you don't have a relationship with, they are on their high horse. They are well trained, and they're actually protected by someone with a weapon. Right. And when they pass judgment on you, you never see them again. Now, we're asking a manager to pass judgment on someone and then have a relationship with them the next 15 minutes, 15 days, 15 years kind of idea. The relationship changes when you're giving negative feedback that is judgmental. And we're going to talk about feedback and appraisal and how they're fundamentally different. So the whole idea of the judge is what changes the dynamic. Because giving anyone negative feedback, whether it's your kids, your spouse, your friends, or whatever. It changes the relationship dynamic for a while. And people got to recover from that. Then they might be open to growth in movement from there after that recovery.

Ken White

Yeah, excellent, yeah. So in the book, you talk about the power of questions.

Christopher Lee

Yes.

Ken White

Well, what do you mean by that?

Christopher Lee

Yeah. Questions are the Holy grail of management, if not humanity. I know it's a big statement, but if you think about it, kids learn. Everybody learns by questions. If you've been around any kind of five or six year old, they ask questions incessantly because they're trying to learn. They're trying to calibrate try to understand. Right. If you're a lawyer, you interrogate witnesses by questions. Police officers gather facts. Doctors. When you go to them, how do they know what's wrong with you? They ask you a series of questions. You're a professor, right. The whole scientific method is based upon questions. If you're a journalist, you just go through the whole process. Questions are amazing. And as a leader or manager, everybody knows that's your job as a leader to find out where there are gaps to diagnose situations and do things. And you're asking questions. And then, most importantly, when we hire people, what do we do? We set up this whole elaborate thing called an interview, which is a series of questions, but we don't do the same to evaluate that same performance.

Ken White

That's great. You talk about performance conversations, and we've experienced those here at William & Mary. But for those, obviously, who haven't. What is that?

Christopher Lee

Well, it's really just a series, a brief, structured conversations about the things that matter most. Right. So a series. It's a planned series of conversations because you can't get everything done in one conversation. When I'm dealing with personnel matters, I've often over my career advise leaders about performance challenges or personnel problems to say, is this a one conversation conversation, a two conversation conversation, or three conversation conversation. Meaning that if you're delivering bad news, you're going to discipline someone or put them on a performance improvement plan. You can't get it all done in one conversation sometimes because people are shocked, don't understand they're coming back, etcetera. So there's a series and then its structure. It's not just a conversation; it's a structured conversation. There's a plan for this conversation. There's a framework around it. And I call it semi-formal. It's formal in that it's structured and planned. And then it's informal in that it's conversational. So it's kind of semi-formal, right. And then it's about the things that matter most. Right. And the question is what matters most that changes. And it's the timing of the year, who you're dealing with, how the work is going, et cetera. So it's a series of brief, structured conversations about the things that matter most. And the conversation is very important because it's giving and receiving information. It's feedback, adjustment, and calibration. And I think the calibration is a really big part of it. What do you mean by good? What do you mean by great? What do you mean by I need to adjust this? Can we talk about that? And if it's non-evaluative, then people are more likely to be forthright and honest when they're sucking win. Right. Because if I'm being evaluated people, they aren't totally truthful because it's just self-preservation. So it kind of goes like this. I never understood the self-evaluation things. I always say it's kind of a mini IQ test. So we set up that. Okay, Chris, we going to have your evaluation next week. How about you do the self-evaluation come to the thing or whatever? And at that meeting, we're going to determine whether you're going to get a promotion. We don't say that, but that's kind of what it is all designed for. And so it says, okay, tell me how you did on these things, and you give yourself an assessment. Okay. Let me think this right. So if I say I did anything other than excellent, you're gonna use this information against me to determine whether I get a promotion.

Ken White

Right.

Christopher Lee

The research shows that superstars, man, they're hard on themselves because they know that feedback and improvement is the Holy grail to getting better. The people who just don't have a clue, they think they're a plus. All the research shows it, and then you spend all your time talking them off the ledge. So the self-evaluation is really kind of a crazy idea.

Ken White

And think of the manager. The further away they are from their feet on the ground, the less they know about what's going on. So what a great way to get information from the team, because you're not quite on the team anymore, right?

Christopher Lee

Yes, absolutely.

Ken White

And you're out of loop fast.

Christopher Lee

Yes. In the first Performance Conversations book, which I did in 2006, I basically reviewed the literature of the past 50, 60 years and had these 15 fallacies of appraisal. And one of those is that the leaders initiate. I know what I'm saying, that the leader sees and knows all this going on. And that's just I don't know how we ever assume that that was accurate. Right. You know what I'm saying, right?

Ken White

Right.

Christopher Lee

Because you don't. And if you have good employees, hopefully, they're doing things that you've given the right direction in charge, and they're on the plan, and they're just knocking things out. And so you never really know 100% of what they do. And if you do, you must be a minor deity to be able to understand and know everything all of your subordinates do.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Chris Lee, author of Performance Conversations, in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Our post COVID world will require new skills and new approaches. Well, those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different MBA formats, including the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive, all taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty. The William & Mary MBA will prepare you to succeed and lead in our new world. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary. Now back to our conversation with Chris Lee.

Ken White

You talk about performance questions in the book? What are they? What's the point?

Christopher Lee

So the performance question is kind of like the 2.0 from the first book, really of refining things. There's seven questions, and the idea of those seven questions are they're aligned with the major purposes of performance management systems? And the goal is if you ask these seven questions, then you've really kind of taking care of all the major concerns and opportunities and things that you would want to do when you're managing performance. Right. And each of them is kind of a chart that kind of shows how these questions are aligned to the various purposes and how they're kind of designed. So there's two kind of questions that I propose. One is I call it the kind of Magic three, which is the original three. And then there's a four additional ones. So I kind of call it the Magnificent seven. Right. So it's kind of 2.0, but it's elegantly simple, and for me, simple is best. Right. It's that kind of Da Vinci's kind of quote about simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. And so the first one is what's going well, and how can we replicate it?

Ken White

Yeah.

Christopher Lee

The second question is, what's not going well? How might we adjust? And then the third question is, what else is going on in your work life that we need to be aware of? And there, your troubleshooting for potential problems and just seizing opportunities. Right. And if you're just asking those three kind of open-ended questions, you'll be amazed where the conversation goes.

Ken White

I experienced it. There's no question. Evaluation went out the window. That's not what it was about. It became about strategy. It became about the future. And are we supporting you as best as possible, or are we creating our own roadblocks? It was amazing. Yeah.

Christopher Lee

Absolutely.

Ken White

Yeah. Just that conversation. Wow. And then you have your checklist, and that's in the book that helps people sort of get through that part of it.

Christopher Lee

Yeah. So we're talking with one of your colleagues earlier. He's a retired army officer, and it just reminds me of one of the examples in the book. I talk about being a Marine officer Lieutenant called the Basic School, the entry-level training. They always gave us this little checklist for anything we did. If you need to call for artillery, if you need to call for aircraft support, if you needed XYZ, they gave us all these checklists, and it's like go down his checklist or whatever. And at the end of training, they would always say, laminate it, take it to the field, meaning take it with you, because it may save your life one day. So imagine you're in a chaotic combat situation, and you need to precisely ask for help. In every little variable to include where they're going to place, this ordinance matters because if you're off a hundred yards, it might land on you versus the enemy. So it's a really a life or death situation. It's the same thing for pilots. So, pilots, they get on a plane. If you get on any commercial aircraft, you walk in. You see the pilots door open. There's two pilots sitting there, and they're going through a checklist.

Ken White

Yeah.

Christopher Lee

Now they've flown 10,000 hours. But missing a step on that checklist means whether you go up and come down the right way or not.

Ken White

Mmm-mmm.

Christopher Lee

So it really really matters, right? There's a whole movement in the medical field, the same idea. Where surgeons incredible human beings, but you'd be amazed at how many times they miss things less than 1%, the experts say. But 1% is 5000 deaths a year. And there's one study. There's a book called The Checklist Manifesto that argues the point that if you're in ICU, there's something like 180 actions they need to take with you every day. And that's incredible number of opportunities for failure.

Ken White

Yeah.

Christopher Lee

So with 1% error, there's still a lot of issues. So checklists are designed to keep people from making mistakes. So we borrow that idea and say, hey, you're going to have this dynamic conversation about performance. We give you a tool to help kind of be a toggle for your memory on things that you want to cover and keep track of over the series of conversations.

Ken White

So I was going to ask if you're the supervisor, the leader, you're maybe introverted. This isn't all that easy for you. The checklist sort of bails you out, doesn't it? That helps you in this conversation.

Christopher Lee

It absolutely does. You're absolutely right. And the questions and checklists are designed for that purpose. And in the framework of the performance conversations method, you actually empower the employee to be prepared for the conversation as well. So you're not just totally driving the conversation. They're going to come with their own questions because they're going to say, Chris, here's what I need from you. One of the Magnificent Seven, the last one is, what can I do for you? And so we were talking about a superstar on your team earlier before we started, right? Man, performance conversations are great for superstars because that's what you should be asking them, which is how do I keep you on the team?

Ken White

Right.

Christopher Lee

I mean, you're not really coming out saying, how do I keep you on a team? You're saying, oh, man, Jennifer or Paul, you're doing great, right? You're doing this whatever. What other opportunities do you want? What growth things can I hand off to you? What are you thinking about? Because if you're not keeping them fulfilled, they're going to go look for something else.

Ken White

Yeah.

Christopher Lee

Right. And so this is an opportunity for them. I can recall one lady; I'll give her a shout-out. Her name is Jennifer James, who's on my team at my previous shop, amazing professional. I think I managed two of our performance conversations. After that, she managed me, and it was a yes, ma'am because she would walk in. She was prepared all the prompts and ticklers or whatever, and she comes here's what this is going on. I'm concerned about that. I want to do this whatever. And I was like, yeah, okay. Got it. Check, check, check. Because I wanted to keep her on the team.

Ken White

Right.

Christopher Lee

And so my job as a coach, you got Michael and Michelle Jordan on the team. You're trying to figure out how can I best utilize his or her talents?

Ken White

Right.

Christopher Lee

And so it's really a great sort of approach because we've shifted the metaphor from boss, employee to coach and performer.

Ken White

Or even teammate it felt like, to me a little bit, it didn't seem like there was one person was, quote, unquote, higher or lower than the other. Yeah. It seemed like it was a real collaborative kind of effort. So if I'm with an organization for years, we've done the scale of one to five, one to five. Everybody gets irritated if they're below a five. But that's how we determine our raises. How do we tie the money, the bonuses, and so forth to this kind of an evaluation on our system?

Christopher Lee

So I would say two things. One is that if you work for an organization this is still 20th century oriented in its thinking, you might have to comply with their rules, policies, and procedures. And I would encourage you to use this framework inside of that because all existing or historical method said the same thing. Evaluations only work if you're doing regular, ongoing feedback. We're giving you a feedback system here. And so that kind of fulfills that need or whatever. I don't think you actually need the evaluation. And we can talk about that another day because there's a lot of information there. But on the issue of tying it to compensation. That is one of the biggest problems with evaluations because then we've shifted for the purpose. Are we trying to manage performance, or are we trying to rate performance? Two fundamentally different issues and the research shows that the tail wagged the dog because here's how it goes. I have a list of 23 reasons or criteria upon which we make compensation decisions in organizations, and evaluations are only one of them. So that's part of the challenge. So let me give you an example. I'm the HR guy happens here as anywhere else. A manager thinks that the salary scale is wrong or my person is not treated fairly. Or I'm really trying to keep Jennifer on the team, and I want to pay her more than the University or the company wants to allow because it matters to me to keep her on the team. So if that person's performance is a 4.8 or 4.2, doesn't matter what the number is. You want more. So you may give them a higher raise than they deserve because you're trying to keep that person on the team. That's an example when the tail wags the dog. And then all evaluation system, there's two different kinds, right? One is against a standard against another. If you're Scotty Pippin, life's tough because you're on the same team with the world's greatest right. And so, if you're on a team by yourself with Scotty Pippin, your chances of getting a higher raise is higher at organizations that use the relative to others.

Ken White

Right.

Christopher Lee

And then the same thing with a great team in an average organization or a good team in a great organization so that calibration across units is always a problem as well. Again, there are 23 different variables. Many private organizations, as you might know, also give you increases according to where you are in the salary range because they want to move people towards the midpoint to keep their salaries competitive overall. So if you perform at the 90th percentile but you in the third quartile, they may slow your growth versus if you're in the first quarter. So again, there are so many variables there. And so when we tie to performance, then we bastardize the performance system. And again, that's just another one of the fallacies around appraisal. So I discourage that, I'm saying, but you have to use that. Information is valuable information. But let's be truthful about it. That's one of the reasons and ways. And the biggest and the easiest is last year. The vast majority of organizations did not give anyone an increase because of the economy turned, if you're in the middle of the year fiscal year in July, because if you're not profitable, you can't give people. So the whole idea that they call it expectancy theory and compensation, that if I do what you say, I expect that you will do what you say, which is give me a raise. And that's never been true because it's the profitability of the company or the division or whatever case may be. It's the largest factor that would drive what your pay will. So then it's kind of hard for you to promise is that if he does his part, you're going to do your part. So again, that's five of the 23 variables, and that's why it's really problematic to tie it together.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Chris Lee, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Companies, organizations, and businesses are seeking professionals who can think strategically, communicate effectively and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats, the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. Check out the William & Mary MBA program to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Chris Lee, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White, wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Jeremy Martin & Kevin Dwan
Jeremy Martin & Kevin DwanEpisode 158: August 5, 2021
NIL & The Changing Face of College Athletics

Jeremy Martin & Kevin Dwan

Episode 158: August 5, 2021

NIL & The Changing Face of College Athletics

For years, student athletes competing at colleges and universities governed by the NCAA were considered to be "amateur athletes." That amateur status meant they were prohibited from making money using their name, image, and likeness. Well that changed recently thanks to the NCAA's Name Image and Likeness policy, known as the NIL Policy. Now, any person, business, or organization can pay a college athlete fair market value to endorse or represent them. For example, athletes can now be paid for personal appearances or for mentioning a business on their social media feeds. In the weeks since the new policy went into effect, stories of athletes signing deals have popped up all across the country. Two leaders in William & Mary's athletic department join us today to discuss the changes. Jeremy Martin spent the last 10 months as Interim Athletics Director. Kevin Dwan is Senior Associate Athletics Director for External Operations for Revenue Generation and Brand Management. They join us to discuss NIL, what it all means, and what lies ahead.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn | Spotify

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • Why was pay for college athletes brought to the forefront
  • What percentage of school athletic programs create net positive revenue
  • How are Title IX and gender equity supported by the NIL policy
  • What are student athletes now allowed to do under NIL
  • What can colleges and universities provide to student athletes
  • What restrictions are on student athletes as they monetize their name, image, and likeness
  • What do businesses get by sponsoring a student athlete
  • How does the NIL policy affect the NCAA
  • What should parents do to prepare their kids for college athletics
Transcript

Jeremy Martin & Kevin Dwan: NIL & The Changing Face of College Athletics TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. For years, student-athletes competing at colleges and universities governed by the NCAA were considered to be amateur athletes. Well, that amateur status meant they were prohibited from making money using their name, image, and likeness. Well, that changed recently thanks to the NCAA's name, image, and likeness policy known as the NIL policy. Now, any person, business, or organization can pay a college athlete fair market value to endorse or represent them. For example, athletes can now be paid for personal appearances or for mentioning a business on their social media feeds. In the weeks since the new policy went into effect, stories of athletes signing deals have popped up all across the country. Two leaders in William & Mary's Athletic Department join us today to discuss the changes. Jeremy Martin spent the last ten months as Interim Athletics Director. Kevin Dwan is Senior Associate Athletics Director for External Operations for Revenue Generation and Brand Management. They join us to discuss NIL, what it all means, and what lies ahead. Here's our conversation with Jeremy Martin and Kevin Dwan.

Ken White

Kevin, Jeremy, thanks very much for being here. I appreciate it your expertise on a very interesting topic. Jeremy, to get us started, can you kind of take us back from the beginning? Where did all this come from, and where is it going?

Jeremy Martin

Well, there's certainly been a lot of conversation around college athletics for a number of years. And so I always like to sort of start with a broader financial reality of people assume, and there are billions of dollars annually spent on college athletics, and people say, okay, well, you've got a multibillion-dollar industry. How is this working, and how is this benefiting what often is called the labor in the student-athletes and those sorts of things. But to sort of frame financial reality. So, according to the NCAA's report in FY 19, you had 25 of the 350 plus universities that were NCAA Division One institutions had had an athletics department that generated a net profit. And so among those folks, the power five programs, which are the ones that you generally hear about, the sixty-five schools in the ACC, SEC,  Big Ten, PAC 12, and Big 12, their median expenses exceeded median revenues by seven million dollars. And among the institutions outside the power five. So sometimes called the Group of five. The other conference, the median deficit was twenty-three million dollars. So to start with, you've got a range of institutions within the FBS Sixty-five. There's a high of a net profit of forty-four million a low of a net deficit of sixty-five million. But most institutions are not making money on athletics.

Ken White

Right.

Jeremy Martin

Now there are sports and, by the way, no SES program, a football championship subdivision program like William & Mary. None of these departments generate a net profit. Now there are sports that generate profit at specific schools beyond those twenty-five. So you may have a school that has a football generating net revenue, but not other sports and not the department as a whole and those sorts of things. And so anyway, that's where is the background of the reality of like the institutions are not making that revenue on athletics in general. You have a few other things that are going on. NIL is obviously one of these. But the Austin case, which was just decided by the Supreme Court, basically upheld that the NCAA could not restrict education-related benefits to Division one basketball and FBS football student-athletes. Now, the specificity, I think, of who those athletes are will quickly go away. But that's the specifics of this decision. And it also establishes that the NCAA is not exempt from the Sherman Antitrust Act, which had previously been the viewpoint, and that if there's an exemption granted like that, which is unlikely, it would have to come through Congress. And so what that's done is sort of set this broader environment with NCAA government or Mark Emmert and others are sort of saying, well, now the conferences and individual institutions have more sway over what they do in the market than the NCAA does as the constrainer or the definer of the entire market. So a conference could say no education-related benefits because it doesn't affect the other 30 plus conferences. But the NCAA can't say it for the entire market from the Austin case. So in the mix and at the same time, you have name, image, likeness, which is basically previously no student-athlete can monetize their name, image, likeness, NIL. You had state-by-state actions that were coming. You had some federal proposals. And basically, what happened was before July 1st, when some states policies were going into effect, the NCAA passed an interim policy, basically granting freedom for everyone in states that had not yet passed policy to do so, to allow the athletes to monetize their name, image, likeness. That, by the way, is where William & Mary fits. The Commonwealth of Virginia is expected to take action at some point but has not yet. And so we fall under that. Our policy falls under that. And so you also sort of have this uneven, a little bit differentiated landscape and that you have institutional policies in NIL. You have state legislation in NIL, and you don't have a fully consistent playing field. And then the last is sort of always plays in anything around college athletics is where Title nine and gender equity plays into this and really in regard to NIL. And it will ultimately play out in terms of educational benefits from the Austin case, how people apply that you put the institution, the notion of the role of facilitator; sorry, the role of educator in regard to educating student-athletes on what they can do with NIL, but not in the role of being the facilitator or the deal broker to say and we're bringing these NIL deals to you, because how you differentiate that between markets from men's sports and women's sports and those kind of things are really difficult. So really, you have the institutions almost stepping back as the third party saying, here's who can help you with your NIL. Here's what you need to know about your NIL, and you too will independently have to meet it won't be facilitated by us.

Ken White

If I'm an athlete and you say, here's who can help me. Who do you mean? Agencies?

Jeremy Martin

You've looked at a lot of the products?

Ken White

This is your area, Kevin?

Kevin Dwan

I mean, there are agencies. You know, you can secure an agent now as long as it's a talent agent and not for playing your sport.

Ken White

Got it.

Kevin Dwan

Tax advisors, financial advisors, attorneys to review contracts, things like that. So those are all the types of things that we certainly recommend our student-athletes take advantage of and educate themselves on. But like Jeremy said, we can't specifically provide that service to them.

Ken White

But this was not something you've done in the past. So this is work. This is effort and a lot of it. Correct, because there are a million question marks.

Kevin Dwan

Yeah, this is all brand new and the amount of companies that have kind of come into being just in the last several months is unbelievable. I think both of our inboxes are probably filled with them on a daily basis with new solutions and new ideas and opportunities. So we've taken the time to learn as much as we possibly can about them all. In order to provide a service for our student-athletes as much as we're able to. But it's definitely hard to kind of weed through all the different.

Jeremy Martin

So getting ready for this, Kevin, who deals with all the external revenue generation not affiliated with fundraising, and Paul Cox, he's our Assistant AD for Compliance, have been leading a working group throughout the university because we know that there are partnerships that we're going to need to help educate our student-athletes how to function that way.

Ken White

Yeah.

Jeremy Martin

But it's the notion of compliance, marketing, and sponsorship like the differing expertise. But they have to come together to make this work for student-athletes.

Ken White

So compliance for the non the non-college sports fan, what is what does that mean?

Kevin Dwan

So our compliance department, in our case, Paul, is is the one who's making sure that we're all following all the NCA guidelines, that our student-athletes remain eligible, that our coaches are following the recruiting guidelines, that we're doing all the right thing. You know, the NCA rule book is sizable.

Ken White

Yeah.

Jeremy Martin

I believe it's four hundred seventy-five pages.

Kevin Dwan

So it's a big job, and it just got a little bit bigger, you know, adding this onto their plate as well.

Ken White

Absolutely. It's a huge job, and it sort of shifts everything, doesn't it?

Kevin Dwan

Yeah, it really does. It just adds a completely new component to what Paul and NCA compliance officers all around the country have to deal with it and have to think about. And like I mentioned, Paul's priority and our priority is making sure our student-athletes remain eligible. You know, typically rules that are broken, you know, the ones that make headlines are not the most common ones. Typically, it's inadvertent. Jeremy said 400 something pages. It's impossible for everyone to know everything that it says. So Paul's job is to make sure that he's a resource for our coaches and our student-athletes, so they don't get into in any trouble that they're not intending to get into, especially in this added a whole new area that's new to all of us.

Ken White

Jeremy, do you think there will be winners and losers in this? Big winners and big losers, is that possible?

Jeremy Martin

Yes, I wouldn't necessarily use those terms. I think it'll be a differentiator. And so, again, feels fitting to talk about markets while you're in Miller Hall. So, really, the fascinating thing to me is there's an assumption of the size of the market that exists for student-athletes name, image, likeness. And where those things really are is around. Hey, if you are a college athletics superstar in whatever sport it is, you have all of this exposure, all these things. What can you do? And the reality is that's a very small piece of the student-athlete market, talent market, so to speak. So I think it's interesting to look at student-athletes, particularly the mid-major level that William & Mary and other places, and say this is actually going to be an indicator to say, here's what your value in the marketplace is. It may not be what you thought it was. The other piece for student-athletes, frankly, NIL monetizing it, will be a third job. So you have the first job of being a student at William & Mary. The second of you're spending a lot of your time at twenty hours a week as a student-athlete. And now we're saying, okay, how many hours do you want to spend trying to build a brand for yourself? So I actually think you will have some student-athletes who say it's good to know that we could.

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Jeremy Martin

I'm interested in being a student and an athlete, and I'm not going to have time for anything else. But also sort of as some student-athletes find that there is value, there is value to monetize in their name, image, likeness, and their personal brand. How that balance of okay I have commitments to the classroom. I have commitments to competition and now commitments to corporate sponsors and things like that. How do I balance those and what happens when potentially you see overreach and that that sponsorship area in which it suddenly becomes, okay, I'm not actually performing as well as I was because I don't have as much time for athletics or the academics that I once did. So there definitely will be differentiators. And the markets from an institutional respect markets individually markets from an institutional perspective. Kevin and I have talked a lot about this. It's fascinating to think of are the student-athletes winning? Are the departments winning, or is there some balance that's sort of a zero-sum game we're in? And we've talked a little bit about whether sponsors view themselves as sponsors, as in I'm getting a return on what I offer or whether they're boosters. And I know you've thought a little bit more about that, Kevin.

Kevin Dwan

Yeah, and I think that there's a variety of those. I don't think everyone fits into one box, you know, so the ones who view themselves more as boosters and they want to support a school because they're part of the community. I think those are the ones that you've got to be careful as an athletic department. They're going to be very interested in working with directly with the student-athletes.

Ken White

Right.

Kevin Dwan

But the majority of the businesses that we work with want to see a return. And I think they're going to have to make a decision, a business decision, whether they see more of a return working directly with student-athletes or with the department as a whole. And I don't think there's one answer. I think it's going to be unique to each partner.

Jeremy Martin

It's also fascinating sort of in the interplay because most of the policies that you see have specific stipulations around use of institutional logos and things like that.

Ken White

Yes.

Jeremy Martin

So, for instance, can you appear in a green t-shirt? That's fine. Can you appear in a logo t-shirt? Well, you now are actually someone looking to do a licensing.

Ken White

Yes.

Jeremy Martin

As an independent NIL, you're a person you're looking to do a licensing to be able to use the logo. And that's that sort of changes the nature of the relationship as well in some ways, so we're just going to keep track of and watch as it develops.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Jeremy Martin and Kevin Dwan in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Our post-COVID world will require new skills and new approaches. Well, those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different formats in the MBA, including the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive, all taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty. The William & Mary MBA will prepare you to succeed and lead in our new world. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary. Now back to our conversation with Jeremy Martin and Kevin Dwan.

Ken White

And Kevin, I think it was University of Texas, their bookstore has made some agreement with student-athletes in terms of so those are the kind of things someone like in your position be dealing with.

Kevin Dwan

Yeah, those would come across my desk as well as Paul's. And, you know, like Jeremy said, it's complicated when you write your own policy. You know, the state of Virginia hasn't issued guidance yet. So we had to make a decision how restrictive or how permissive our policy was going to be.

Ken White

Right.

Kevin Dwan

And, you know, we tried to make it as permissive as possible. You know, we don't want to limit our student-athletes opportunities at all, but we do have to protect our business interests. So if we work with one car dealership and a student-athlete has a partnership with another, we don't necessarily want that William & Mary logo on their chest when they're in a commercial, you know, with a competing car dealership? So those are the sort of things that we try to spell out in here and give a pathway to be as permissive as possible while still protecting our interests.

Ken White

One athlete in Alabama who's not been a starter yet has not, as a starting quarterback, taken a snap. We're looking at almost a million dollars in endorsements. How does that happen?

Kevin Dwan

I think people are making a bet on, you know, looking at the history of Alabama starting quarterbacks.

Ken White

Yeah.

Kevin Dwan

That's probably a pretty safe bet, to be honest with you. So, you know, there's some speculation there for sure. And I think at the outset, you know, we're so early in this. I think a lot of people are testing it, and they want to see how well it's going to work. You know, I do think things will come back down to earth a little bit in the next couple of months, maybe a couple of years. But there's no question people are out there pushing the limits and trying to find the loopholes and see everything that they can do. And some student-athletes are going to benefit from that in a big way.

Jeremy Martin

Well, the Alabama quarterback is a great example. So from, again, valuing this NIL, you're looking at the projected starting quarterback and saying, we think that you're going to be on national TV

Ken White

Absolutely.

Jeremy Martin

ten Saturdays this fall.

Ken White

Yeah.

Jeremy Martin

You know, all those sorts of things. And then it sort, again, other stuff that hasn't just been settled out. At the end of every Super Bowl, it used to be that they, you know, put a Disney camera in your face and say, oh, no, are you going to see student-athletes pulling cell phones out on the sidelines after wins. Like all of this stuff, just in terms of relation of, okay, when are you in your athletic capacity versus when are you in your individual capacity, all those sorts of things. We're going to have to go through a few cycles of these to figure some of this stuff out.

Ken White

No question. Will we see athletic departments have new positions, associate director for NIL? I mean, for example, I mean, just to handle all of this.

Jeremy Martin

You already are. Most of the new positions I'm familiar with, Ken, are actually on the compliance side.

Ken White

Oh okay.

Jeremy Martin

And also, a number of folks are outsourcing sort of, again, that third-party educator to say we want you to provide the educational component. And in the marketplace, there are few. I think it's it's actually just a handful that have we provide the education component. And we also have a marketplace in which student-athletes can meet with potential sponsors and things like that. So, yes, there will be yes. It adds work. There will be additional staff hired at a number of places. I don't know that at our level. We haven't seen the floodgates open at William & Mary. And so that our student-athletes, I actually think, are more likely to benefit from their creativity and entrepreneurship beyond their capacity as student-athletes. But the classic is we have student-athlete who was an avid fisherman and had had a podcast or had had a video blog related to that like he could now monetize that and be sponsored by fishing companies and things like that. That's unrelated to his ability as a student-athlete.

Kevin Dwan

Yeah, and I think the areas where in addition to the compliance positions that you're going to see, we're starting to see creative positions in college athletics. So even though we can create content for someone to use for their name, image, and likeness activities for a student-athlete to use. We can talk to them about how we'll grow their brand and, you know, help them to grow their social media following. And, you know, athletic departments were already creating content, not branded content that the student-athlete monetize, but they were creating content for student-athletes to share on their own social media, you know, videos, graphics, things like that. And that's a big part of recruiting now. Student-athletes want to know how you can help me grow my individual brand so that I can then go out and monetize it. So those creative positions, I think there's really going to be a run on that one as well.

Jeremy Martin

If you think about the classic recruiting day photos where it's like, well, how did they get that recruit in the jersey? You know, I think things like, well, they did a photoshoot when they're on their visit.

Ken White

Right. There you go.

Jeremy Martin

There, you know, they were ready and creating graphics

Ken White

Yeah.

Jeremy Martin

for that individual.

Kevin Dwan

Yeah.

Ken White

What does this do for the NCAA and its future? I mean, this was one powerful organization for decades. Does this strengthen it? Weaken it? Nothing.

Jeremy Martin

Sorry, my pause is weaken is a fascinating thing. The NCAA has always been made up of its membership

Ken White

Right.

Jeremy Martin

and Mark Emmert would say that regularly.

Ken White

He's the executive director

Jeremy Martin

of the NCAA. What's really fascinating is, again, this is where the Austin case comes in, and you start to see, okay, the NCAA is effectively setting the entire market for college athletics. Likely has lost clout in terms of its ability to set that market. The institutions and the so governance wise, whereas you had the institutions of the conference, is looking to the NCAA saying, what could we do? You now likely find yourself in a scenario where the NCAA is saying we have some risk averseness of what we can do at the national level. What are you as a conference, what are you as an institution going to do? Which is really just a sort of a governance. It's a reframing of the governance relationship. And it remains to be seen. I mean, there's obviously some right now as we're filming this, you know, there's speculation about where Texas and Oklahoma ultimately will land.

Ken White

Right.

Jeremy Martin

Some of these developments may make more likely that differentiated on market institutions are affiliating themselves differently in the future.

Ken White

Interesting. I was talking to a former student-athlete recently who a female said, I think women are really going to jump in this. I think there's some really cool opportunities because some of the female student-athletes in some college towns have incredible followings. Right. Kevin, have you seen some of these who are just absolutely. They're the leaders of their communities. They're such stars.

Kevin Dwan

Absolutely. I mean, I know there's a specific instance of twin basketball players, twin sisters, out at Fresno State University who came in with massive followings and now going to be able to to take advantage of that, which I think is wonderful because, you know, previously they were going to have to make a decision. You know, they stand to make a lot of money, but they couldn't do that and play college basketball.

Ken White

Yeah.

Kevin Dwan

And now they don't have to make that decision. They can stay at Fresno State and hopefully have great careers. And so it's a huge opportunity for people like that.

Jeremy Martin

One article not that long ago, more than half of the top ten Instagram followings among college athletes were actually women's athletes

Ken White

Right.

Jeremy Martin

in various sports. But if you think about someone like Paige Bueckers at UConn, she may actually have a larger platform.

Ken White

Yeah.

Jeremy Martin

As the star player at UConn, then turning pro, which was never the case before. And if you want to make any money, you would have to change. So it is fascinating to see on my YouTube feed right after the William & Mary recruit's, you know, that always search us, and it is interesting to see, okay, the twins from Fresno State appear on my feed. Paige Bueckers might be in that kind of thing and how that works out and all of those things, by the way, whether or not you can advantage yourself in YouTube algorithms or things like it.

Ken White

Wow.

Jeremy Martin

For all these student-athletes.

Ken White

Any Jeremy, any advice to parents because they're going to play a role in this. This is affecting them. They get involved in the recruiting aspect of it. Any advice to them as their son or daughter comes through the pipeline?

Jeremy Martin

Parenting is hard.

Ken White

Yeah.

Jeremy Martin

I would I don't think the role of momager or dad managers is a great one. You know, I think you love and support your children, and you let them follow their interest. I think that I think that sometimes you run into parents who believe that, like there's naturally a scholarship for my child in the sport, whatever it is. And, you know, there's a lot of coverage to sort of recognize. Oh, well, like the percentage you actually get scholarships is really small with travel teams and all sorts of things. Now, like you find huge investments in parents from a very, very, very young age. So my advice to any parent would be and what I try hopefully doing, but that failing and Kevin I know you got love your kids, encourage them as they pursue their interests, but it's going to be a very, very slim few that are going to have, you know, multimillion-dollar value in NIL by the time they reach college or even during college. And so enjoy your kids. Love them.

Ken White

Kevin, this might be unfair but looking through your crystal ball. What do you think is coming? What should we be watching out for in terms of NIL? What are some of the bigger issues?

Kevin Dwan

Yeah, you know, I think NIL in conjunction with the transfer portal and, you know, removing restrictions, I think is, you know, creates some risk for student-athletes just in the sense, like we had talked about previously. Student-athletes chasing things, you know, trying to get to bigger markets, bigger teams, because they think that's going to be a benefit. And there are only so many opportunities in Division one. You know, you already hear horror stories about thousands of student-athletes being in the transfer portal, and they're just not being that many scholarships available. You know, so there are kids who are no doubt being left without opportunities. And I think name, image, and likeness, you know, there's some risk that that makes that a little bit worse. It gives another incentive to look to other opportunities to look to change things. But in general, I do think it's positive. You know, I think there are student-athletes who've had to make difficult decisions, you know, whether they have to go pursue a career, whether that's professional sports or other opportunities, or stay in college and be a student-athlete. And, you know, NIL kind of helps to solve that problem, you know, now, hopefully, more kids can complete their degrees, and maybe you see student-athletes sticking around longer. Playing three or four years instead of one or two because they don't have to make those difficult decisions. So, you know, there's a lot to learn, and there's a lot we don't know yet. But in general, I think if we stay on top of it and just keep the best interest of the student-athletes in mind, it's largely positive.

Jeremy Martin

I think the Duke example, again, not that everything has to revolve around the Blue Devils, but if you think about. All right. In the classic days when players stayed for three or four years in that program, what was Christian Laettner, Bobby Hurley, Grant Hills? What were their initials worth having literally having built a following while they're in college versus the one-and-done player who comes in with a huge reputation, to begin with, but doesn't necessarily have the loyalty of a fan base immediately? And hopefully, actually, my personal opinion, I love to see it play out the way you just mentioned there, where it's like, hey, you could stay in college two or three or even four years because you're not penalized for being here in that regard. But that's my hope, at least.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Jeremy Martin and Kevin Dwan, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Companies, organizations, and businesses are seeking professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. Check out the William & Mary MBA program to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guests Jeremy Martin and Kevin Dwan. And thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Ram Ganeshan
Ram GaneshanEpisode 157: July 16, 2021
Supply Chain & The Pandemic

Ram Ganeshan

Episode 157: July 16, 2021

Supply Chain & The Pandemic

If you’ve tried to purchase new furniture recently, or chlorine for a pool, or even certain makes and models of new cars, you may have been told you’ll have to wait several weeks - possibly several months before the product is back in stock. Items from lumber to clothing to electronics have been difficult to find in recent months. The reason is often tied to the supply chain, which has been adversely affected throughout the pandemic, forcing consumers to wait until their new purchases arrive. Ram Ganeshan is a Professor of Operations and Information Systems Management at William & Mary School of Business. He teaches supply chain management and digital strategies courses. His research and consulting interests include supply chain management and logistics strategy. Professor Ganeshan says the shortages we see now are the results of decades-long developments in supply chains, and the pandemic simply tipped it over the edge. He joins us today to discuss supply chains, their complexity, and why the shortages are happening.

Podcast (audio)

Ram Ganeshan: Supply Chain & The Pandemic TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What is a supply chain
  • How does a supply chain compare to a reverse supply chain
  • How have labor costs contributed to global supply chains
  • Why are there shortages of semiconductors and computer chips
  • How do geopolitical forces affect supply chains
  • When might the semiconductor shortage end
  • How are the U.S. ports affected by increased demand
  • Was the pandemic supply chain issue predicted
  • How should organizations prepare for supply chain shortages
  • How is the U.S. - China relationship affecting supply chains
Transcript

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business. The podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Well, if you've tried to purchase new furniture recently or chlorine for a pool or even certain makes and models of new cars. You may have been told you'll have to wait several weeks, possibly several months, before the product is back in stock. Items from lumber to clothing to electronics have been difficult to find in recent months. Well, the reason is often tied to the supply chain, which has been adversely affected throughout the pandemic—forcing consumers to wait until their new purchases arrive. Ram Ganeshan is a professor of operations and information systems management at William & Mary's School of Business. He teaches supply chain management and digital strategies courses. His research and consulting interests include supply chain management and logistics strategy. Professor Ganesan says the shortages we see now are the results of decades-long developments in supply chains, and the pandemic simply tipped it over the edge. He joins us today to discuss supply chains, their complexity, and why the shortages are happening. Here's our conversation with Professor Ram Ganeshan.

Ken White

Well, Ram, thanks for joining us. Great to see you. I appreciate you sharing your time and expertise with us today.

Ram Ganeshan

Same here.

Ken White

So supply chain, it's one of those things. I think people know the term, but they don't. Many people don't understand really what this is. What is supply chain? You've used the term division of labor. Can you explain what supply chain is?

Ram Ganeshan

The easiest way to think about it as supply chain is the series of activities that source the components, and something is made out of it, assembled, produced, manufactured, and then it slowly makes its way to the end customer via our distribution centers and ports and rail and truck and so on and gets to your local store or stuff like that. So it's a series of events that gets makes the product and gets it to you. And then the second part of the supply chain is once the product is used, how it's disassembled and reused and recycled, and so on. So that's the reverse supply chain. So that, in a sense, is what I would consider a supply chain.

Ken White

And in our world today, we need to rely on that because some products are pretty complicated, aren't they?

Ram Ganeshan

Yes, most products are. You know, your iPhone, for example, is it has at last count more than 60 or 70 metals from the periodic table.

Ken White

Wow.

Ram Ganeshan

Those of you have it hanging on your bedroom wall would know that. Not only that but it's designed in, of course, California. And all the components are made in Taiwan and Korea, and Japan. And it's actually assembled in China, and it's shipped to the United States. Where most of the demand is for the iPhone. So supply chains have not only are complex, but they've also become very global.

Ken White

We're seeing some shortages right now in various products. This didn't happen overnight, did it?

Ram Ganeshan

No, it didn't. And part of the reason we are actually seeing it now is of how supply chains have evolved over time. It used to be that 30 years ago, the common reason why large multinational companies outsource, especially this may be obvious in apparel to the Far East, is because of labor costs. So they were able to save on labor and then show a quarterly increase in profits and so on. But the way it's evolved now is supply chains have what I would call become not only global, but they've also become very specialized and very concentrated. The semiconductor was a case in point, actually. If you look at the semiconductor supply chain if you look at the demand for chips. China and the U.S. account for half the world's demand of semiconductors. Twenty-five percent each. But if you think about how the semiconductors are actually made, the U.S. spends the value added by the United States is largely in the design and the core I.P. Folks like Intel design the chips. And what has happened over the last twenty-five years is we don't have any fabrication at least of any sufficient capacity in the United States. And most of the fabrication of those chips happened really in three countries, Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. So they do most of what they call wafer fabrications. And you've seen pictures of people in white suits going in cleaned rooms. And so that's where that happens. It's a very expensive thing to do. And the industrial policy in those countries and the particular companies have decided that this is the way they want to go. So most of wafer production happens in the Far East, and then China has taken the more of the assembly and the testing of the semiconductor. So the United States still, if you look at the in totality, the United States still, if you look at value-added, has 40 percent of the value chain of some of the largest in the world still. But they only make certain things. They only do certain parts of it. And we can call it division of labor, if you may. So Taiwan is the only country in the world that does the less than 10 nanometer, which is the faster, more advanced logic chips. So that's how they've sort of become not just global but concentrated and highly specialized, which is leading into some of these shortages.

Ken White

Yes. So what happened then, for example, the semiconductor.

Ram Ganeshan

So the first signs of the pandemic was in February. That's when things in China and Taiwan, and Japan started shutting down.

Ken White

Yes.

Ram Ganeshan

So we lost some capacity there. And then in March and April, when we shut down. The demand for let's talk about the auto industry because that's where we're seeing it.

Ken White

Right.

Ram Ganeshan

The demand for new cars and rental cars just plummeted.

Ken White

Sure did.

Ram Ganeshan

And if you look at the auto industry, they have long been operating on what is called the Just-In-Time system. So they hold just enough inventory, and they become extremely good at cutting costs and cutting costs and keeping it running a tight ship. So as soon as they saw the demand go down, they just cut their orders for parts and supplies of semiconductors from the Far East because that's also spread globally. Interestingly enough, as we were shutting down demand for certain products and we have all heard of the pelotons, right.

Ken White

Sure.

Ram Ganeshan

That started increasing your webcams and your computers and iPads and so on and so forth. So what was happening is the semiconductor capacity started being reallocated from auto to all these different products where there was an increase in demand. So the change in consumer patterns caught the auto industry in a bind. But then there are other issues. They were geopolitical issues, obviously. President Trump, for example, banned Huawei and GTE. And what they started doing was they started holding the 5G chips because they saw this coming.

Ken White

Right.

Ram Ganeshan

And they started holding the chips at a time. And then certain semiconductor companies in China got blacklisted, some of the big fabs, for example, and they lost that we lost that capacity there. The issue then we had some small hiccups like fires and fabrication plants and Taiwan and Japan that sort of jammed up the system. That clearly put a lot of pressure on semiconductors. So and because it's a very capital investment intensive industry, you need big machines and clean rooms and so on. A small fire can mess things up quite a bit.

Ken White

Yeah.

Ram Ganeshan

So it's not a matter of, you know, cleaning it normally.

Ken White

Right.

Ram Ganeshan

It's a special thing. So, yeah. So it's not easy to change capacity.

Ken White

Right.

Ram Ganeshan

It takes about nine to 12 months. So what we are anticipating is maybe the semi shortage might ease up by the end of this year.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Professor Ram Ganeshan in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Our post COVID world will require new skills and new approaches. Well, those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different MBA formats, including the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive, all taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty. The William & Mary MBA will prepare you to lead and succeed in our new world. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary. Now back to our conversation with Professor Ram Ganeshan.

Ram Ganeshan

I don't know if you want to talk about the logistics of getting those things to the U.S.

Ken White

Yeah, I think that's we see it in the press, right?

Ram Ganeshan

Yeah.

Ken White

We see the cargo ships sitting, you know, outside of Norfolk or Los Angeles.

Ram Ganeshan

Yeah, so I talked about the increased demand. Part of the issue of the increased demand is you had all these containers full of stuff. I mean, this could be board games or whatever else.

Ken White

Sure.

Ram Ganeshan

It's filled with that people were ordering. And part of the reason is the demand shifted from services to products. So we no longer going out to eat and we not going to cinemas or concerts or getting massages or whatever. So disposable income was being spent on these different things.

Ken White

Right.

Ram Ganeshan

And they were all a significant portion of it was coming from outside the United States and the supply. So you saw even a small increase, you know, 10 to 30 percent increase in some products. The suppliers were working overtime, and these containers full of stuff were coming towards usually they come towards the California ports because those are the closest to China. And clearly, that created a huge logjam. And I read a statistic somewhere that an average of 40 ships were waiting, an average of anchored for seven days to actually get into the port.

Ken White

Wow.

Ram Ganeshan

So think about this big not only that, the folks who are working in the ports were at lowered capacity simply because COVID restrictions. Ports couldn't go in 100 percent capacity. So those two contributed to the port congestion. But an interesting another statistic was the Port of L.A., for the first time last year, handled more than what they call one million TEUs. TEUs the easy way to think about it is a 20-foot container would be one TEU. So typical 40 foot would be set to. This is simplifying things, but more than a million the first time ever.

Ken White

Wow.

Ram Ganeshan

So they're working, and it's not like they're doing significant business. There's a problem that's associated with that, which is the trade imbalance. I mean, you heard you heard of politicians talk about it all the time. So we're getting the containers full of stuff, but then we're not shipping them full of stuff. Now, second issue that has come up in port operations is container availability. So we have these full containers that take several days to empty out. And the reason it's taking several days to empty out simply because the warehouses are full. So they don't have room to put these containers anywhere.

Ken White

Wow.

Ram Ganeshan

So it's sort of backed up that way. And now, when you have an empty container now, it has to go back to get it fulled. So so you have to load it up onto a ship which takes significant amount of time.

Ken White

Sure.

Ram Ganeshan

Ship it to wherever it needs to go. So this has created a sort of a global maritime problem of port congestion. Of course, we could talk about the ship getting stuck on the Suez Canal.

Ken White

Right.

Ram Ganeshan

Wow.

Ken White

Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. It makes sense that when you think about it, when organizations, when it comes to supply chain companies, Fortune 500 companies, manufacturers, they'll practice crisis communication. Right. They'll practice for something that could happen in a public relations manner that could affect them. Do they do that with supply chain? I guess my question is, did no one see this coming, basically?

Ram Ganeshan

They saw it coming. I think there are multiple reasons why we find ourselves here. You know, Don Rumsfeld, who was our defense secretary, once said, you know, he did a four by two by two grid. The known knowns and the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns. The pandemic was definitely unknown, known. And so we just didn't know when it was going to hit. But we know it was going to hit. I mean, firms do take a lot of spend a lot of time and energy managing risk in the supply chain and disruptions in the supply chain. But most of it involve, for example, you hold a little bit more inventory than before to buffer against it, or you find some capacity somewhere, or you diversify your supply base. So if some something goes down, you can. So there are several examples that do exist. But the pandemic was unique because, for several products, the demand went down to zero. So did the supply. If you take recreational vehicles, for example, the demand was shooting through the roof, and you didn't have enough supply to make it. So it was on both sides. I mean, so I think many planners need to grapple with should we plan for a state of being in a pandemic all the time, which can be a very expensive supply chain. So you have to take your you have to balance your risks.

Ken White

Yeah.

Ram Ganeshan

So you go with the smaller risks, you cover them, the larger risks, you have a larger, bigger plan so.

Ken White

Long-term, how is important? How is the relationship between the U.S. and China affecting supply chain long term?

Ram Ganeshan

Well, we about when China joined the WTO 20 odd years ago, we really joined hands with them saying we're going to work with you. I mean, if you look at the Fortune 500 companies, it'd be hard to find a company that does not do business in China or actually get its revenues from China. So it goes both ways. So we buy stuff and sell stuff to them, too. So the real solution is, do you know what I would call broker a détente between China and the U.S.? I think we need to figure out a way to work together. I think that's the real solution. Trying to posture sort of adversarial posturing is not going to help.

Ken White

Were there winners or losers? I assume a lot of losers throughout the pandemic in terms of products and sales. Were there any winners in all of this?

Ram Ganeshan

I think it's a sort of a scale. Right. How much did you win and lose? And unfortunately, I think the biggest losers let me start there are small businesses that didn't have the scale. You know, I am, for example, big coffee drinker. And I also love craft beer. And unfortunately, because demand simply disappeared and they didn't have the sort of the skill to do digital delivery and have like a touchless thing. Many of the small businesses, unfortunately, didn't fare really well. The Cares Act did help, but not enough. I think some of the large multinationals are doing really well. I mean, I mean, just look at some of the quarterly announcements for profits, right. It was a blockbuster quarter last year, and it's going to be a blockbuster quarter this year for some of the big guys in the Fortune 500. So they were winners, I think, in many ways. So, yeah, it's unfortunate. And I think we do need some sort of an industrial policy. The U.S., I think, has been hesitant to have a policy, but I think we do need something to protect this knowledge. And because small businesses are the majority of what we have here.

Ken White

And for the consumer, if you're waiting, you just hang in there. It's coming right. Whatever it is you're waiting on is coming eventually.

Ram Ganeshan

I mean, yeah, if you have to buy a house, you don't have a choice, you pay more. I mean, that is the nature of things. But we've heard about the lumber shortage, but it's coming slowly back to normal. Of course, toilet paper is also somewhat back to normal.

Ken White

Yeah.

Ram Ganeshan

There has been some adjustments, but some of these inflationary pressures are sort of easing, at least from a supply chain perspective. I think the economy is going to do really well, at least the next quarter, from what I can tell. Yeah, I think I think hopefully, as more of the world gets vaccinated and things slowly begin, normalcy begins to appear. I think in the U.S., it's still somewhat feel to normal now, since about, oh, close to 70 percent of us are vaccinated. But you still can't travel around the world. It is still not normal for most of the rest of the world. So I think once that eases, I think we'll see things slowly getting back to where they were. At least, let's hope so.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Professor Ram Ganeshan. And that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Companies, organizations, and businesses are seeking professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats, the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. Check out the William & Mary MBA program to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest Ram Ganeshan and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Mike Seiler
Mike SeilerEpisode 156: July 1, 2021
The U.S. Housing Market

Mike Seiler

Episode 156: July 1, 2021

The U.S. Housing Market

Of the many sectors and industries affected by the pandemic, one in particular has caught the attention of consumers, buyers, sellers, and investors: The US housing market. Mortgage rates, prices, labor, supply, demand - they’ve all changed over the past few months, making the housing market one of the most interesting to follow. Saying the market is “hot” in some areas is a major understatement. Houses are selling quickly in many regions, often for well above the listing price. In some cases, buyers are doing whatever it takes to secure the property, like foregoing home inspections and making all-cash offers. But while we hear about the hot markets in many parts of the country, that’s not the case in every region and city. Mike Seiler is a Professor of Real Estate and Finance at William & Mary School of Business. He joins us today to talk about the US housing market, how it differs from region to region and where things might end up in the months ahead.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • Why the residential real estate market is hot right now
  • What does a hot market mean for people who aren’t considering selling their homes
  • How has the pandemic affected home prices
  • Are bidding wars good for the real estate market
  • How has new home construction affected the price of existing homes for sale
  • How have supply and labor shortages affected the real estate market
  • How do homes bought as investments affect the overall market
  • How do iBuyers make the market more efficient
  • How can a 3D-printed home be more energy efficient than a standard home
  • What will the US home market look like in 2022
Transcript

Mike Seiler: The U.S. Housing Market TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Of the many sectors and industries affected by the pandemic, one, in particular, has caught the attention of consumers, buyers, sellers, and investors. The U.S. housing market. Mortgage rates, prices, labor supply, demand, they've all changed over the past few months, making the housing market one of the most interesting to follow. Saying the market is hot in some areas is a major understatement. Houses are selling quickly in many regions, often for well above the listing price. In some cases, buyers are doing whatever it takes to secure the property, like forgoing home inspections and making all-cash offers. But while we hear about the hot markets in many parts of the country, that's not the case in every region and city. Mike Seiler is a professor of real estate and finance at William & Mary's School of Business. He joins us today to talk about the U.S. housing market, how it differs from region to region, and where things might end up in the months ahead. Here's our conversation with Professor Mike Seiler.

Ken White

Well, Mike, thanks very much for joining us. It's nice to see you. Hope you had a good, good Memorial Day weekend.

Mike Seiler

Yeah, we sure did. Enjoying the recovery of the weather. It's really good to see you. I can't wait to see you in person.

Ken White

Yeah, how about it? How about it? You know, I thought of you immediately when I keep hearing about the real estate market now, it seems to be exciting and interesting. And right now, when you look at the residential real estate market in the U.S., what are you seeing? I mean, how do you describe it?

Mike Seiler

Well, as you know, it's super hot, right? I mean, we have the fewest number of homes on record that are out there on the market. So you just can't find anything. And I haven't heard a stat they said that there are fewer homes out there available, that you have agents represent them. So any time you have more agents in a market than you do homes, you know, you have a restrictive supply. So that's just pushing home prices way, way high.

Ken White

Wow. Well, you know, one of the downsides is people think, yes, I'll sell, I'll make money. But you need another place to live. If you buy, that'll be expensive.

Mike Seiler

Yeah. In fact, it might be the other way around. Let's say that you live in a home, and you just want to be there for a super long period of time. Well, in most states, that's just going to cause your taxes to go up. Your property taxes are going up because your home value went up. So if you're in a state like Virginia where they just say, well, every year your taxes are going to be based on market value, then that's not good for you. You actually want home prices to go down for all of the years that you're going to live there and then go right back up again, and then you sell. That's what you want. So, yes, this means higher property taxes for us owners who are more thinking in terms of staying in place.

Ken White

Yeah, great point. When you look at today's market, does it remind you of any other period of time in the last generation or so?

Mike Seiler

Well, the home appreciation aspect of it reminds me of two thousand four. But thankfully, we are not in a two thousand four environment. You know, two thousand four. We had home prices going up and then this fear of missing out to where you think, oh, well, if I don't buy now, I'm never going to be able to afford to buy. And then you go to your lender, and your lender says, oh, sure, we'll do these ninja loans. No job, no income, no assets. Sure, that's fine. We'll lend to you for no reason at all. People also pulled their money out in the form of treating their house like an ATM. And so a lot of problems back then. But while I see home prices going up, I think it's a lot of it is pandemic related. So it's not really as big a risk of a crash as it was in two thousand four. I say that now. Please don't replay this podcast in five years if I'm wrong. But, you know, the warning signs are not there now. That said, don't forget the Kahrizak brought about this mortgage forbearance, but we have a lot more equity in our home right now. So I understand that the market can pull back, and I think it will do that. But I don't see us with a massive void of equity. Back then, we had home prices dropping, and every time they went up, people followed that loan to value ratio by getting a second lien, pulling money out of the home. And we're not really seeing people do that now. And thank goodness, because that just sets you up for failure when that loan balance just trails the price of your home. So when the price of your home comes down, your loan balances high, and now you're underwater. We're not seeing that this time. So I am much less fearful of a crash.

Ken White

What are you seeing from the pandemic? What is it doing to the home prices in the market right now?

Mike Seiler

Well, the home prices, of course, they continue to go up. And let me say this right off the bat. Real estate is local. So if I tell you one thing, if you're in a part of the country and you say, well, I don't know if that feels as true here, someone else in a different city might say, well, he's understating how this works. Have a super hot market, and the prices have gotten so high that I don't think I'll ever be able to buy a house. So real estate is very, very local. I think a lot of what we're experiencing is pandemic-driven. So, for example, you might wonder why are home prices are going up, what's happening here. And some of the reasons are what they were before low-interest rates. But interest rates have been low for a while. So that's not really a sufficient or complete reason why home prices are going up. And we talked about restricted supply. And you might ask, why is supply restricted? Well, think about the pandemic. When it first rolled out, we had an immediate shutdown. You were afraid to physically be in proximity to other people. You certainly don't want those other people walking through your house. So we just don't see that supply of homes on the market. And spring is coming. The pandemic, we hope, knock on wood is ending or at least nearing an end. And so I think you'll see that supply of homes come back onto the market and maybe that equilibrium price will be reached.

Ken White

Bidding wars, we read a lot in certain markets. It's amazing what buyers are offering, not just the listed price, but even more foregoing inspections and so forth. Are these bidding wars good for for for real estate?

Mike Seiler

Well, they're good for sellers of real estate, right? They're not great for buyers. A bidding war that's in the eye of the beholder. So let's go back to your home inspection. The home inspection is typically done just to find anything that's hidden in the house because a buyer may maybe you're a surgeon and you're a genius and so forth, but you don't necessarily know how to crawl under a house, and you don't know what to look for. So you hire a home inspector, maybe you pay five hundred dollars. They will go through all the nooks and crannies of the place. But the point of the home inspection is not necessarily to kill the deal. The point of the home inspection is to find out what might be wrong with the house so that you can negotiate a more accurate price. But if you have a market that is super hot and you've got a line wrapped around the corner, a potential buyer, a seller does not want to hear what the problems are. The seller might think, well, if you don't like the house because you perceive there to be a problem, then just jump out of line. I'll talk to the person right behind you who is either not going to take the time to require a home inspection or might just kind of look past it and think, I'll just do that work myself in my downtime, whatever. So, yeah, home inspections right now, always a good idea. But in this market, if you're looking to buy, be really careful. That might cause you to get bumped out of line.

Ken White

Wow, and that's a tough spot. That's a tough spot for buyers to be in. What about new home construction? What's happening there in terms of how is it affecting the price of existing homes at this point?

Mike Seiler

So, of course, when you're out there to buy a house, you can buy existing or new. And so they are competing goods. One of the factors I hear often is, yeah, but if I want a new home, it's not like there's a new home everywhere. So maybe a historic neighborhood, you only have existing homes. That's all true. But still, these two compete with each other. Now let's talk about the cost of a new home. There's a great meme going around on the Internet, and it's about a lady who's very well dressed. And she says to her husband, she says, take me somewhere expensive. And then, the next part of the meme shows that they are in the lumber aisle at Home Depot at a table waiting for them. But it's not just lumber. A lumber prices have gone crazy high, but it's everything that you put into construction. And I'm not even just talking about the building materials. I mean, remember, it wasn't that long ago that ships were parked out in the Pacific Ocean waiting to come to port because there was just no room they couldn't unload. Their 20-foot containers and 40-foot containers has been resolved for the most part. We still saw crates being shipped back to Asia empty. So imagine you're a taxi driver, right? You take someone to the airport. And logically, what you would do is you would think, well, I'm at the airport, I'm just going to get in the taxi line. But now that things two miles long, you're like, forget it. I'm going back in the city taking someone else to the airport. That's what was happening, taking goods from Asia to North America. They got here. They had to wait. They finally unloaded them. They would send them back empty. Those are signs when you're willing to traverse the largest ocean on that globe with an empty amount of freight that is telling you something is very much wrong. So logistical issues are causing prices of actual materials to go up. You also see in your homes that are being built where the people cannot get appliances for there. So you might have the home completed, but your kitchen doesn't have a refrigerator and a stove and a dishwasher that's not ready to go. It's not turnkey at that point. All kinds of problems there. And then let's talk about labor real quick. You're only as good as the people who put their hands on that home. So if you're trying to hire skilled labor and these folks are during the PPP money, you would have, let's say, five people on a construction team, maybe a construction team. They knew the work had to be cut back originally. And so they thought, well, what I'm going to do is I can either have all five of my workers have fewer hours, which is not really going to work for anybody, or I can pick three of them, the same amount of money they were earning and put two of them on unemployment. And that's what a lot of people were doing. So as we're coming back into the workforce, you're trying to get people to do work on your home, or your builders are trying to get new people to construct the home. And the skilled labor that they need is not always there. And so, again, your construction quality is a lot harder to do it with new people. I just had a company I won't name, but they were doing some foundation work in my house. I was not at all pleased with it. And they said, oh, we're just training a whole bunch of new people. And so even that name recognition, you think all of this going to a reputable company with a great name and sound history of work, that's not even enough these days. So this is really tough as a developer to do what they had been doing in the past because of a labor shortage as well.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Professor Mike Seiler in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Our post-COVID World will require new skills and new approaches. And those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different formats, including the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive, all taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty, the William & Mary MBA, will prepare you to succeed and lead in our new world. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary. Now back to our conversation with Professor Mike Seiler.

Ken White

The Wall Street Journal recently reported about one-fifth of all homes are sold that are sold are purchased by investors. How does that affect the market?

Mike Seiler

Well, what's so interesting about that is we should think about that number being very different. So in some places, you're going to have a lot more investors that are institutional. In other places, not so much. And I'll just give an example. We've got a really interesting paper on ibuyers, and these ibuyers are going in, and they're making a cash offer for your home. Now, initially, you might think, well, how are they going to do that? And the process is they have something called the AVM or automated valuation model. So they use machine learning and deep learning techniques to figure out how much people's homes are worth over a very, very large area. It's like a mass appraisal concept but done on a much greater scale. And then they'll make a cash offer too, let's say, five hundred thousand dollars. And you say, well, my home is worth five-sixty and say, well, Ken, the reason why I'm offering you a little bit below market value is because there's going to be no sales commission paid. Right? You're not going to pay that to me, certainly. I'm going to buy it directly. I'm going to write you a check, and then I'm going to take that home, and I'm going to make some very simple improvements. And then I'm going to turn around and sell maybe within three to four months. And that's where I'll make my money on kind of that low-hanging fruit. Let's do those high ROI projects, if you will. To a person, you might say, well, why would I be willing to accept less money? Okay, fine. There's going to be no or less commission. I get that. But what about the rest of the money? And I ask you. We have a tremendous MBA program. Let's say someone graduates, and they get a job in Seattle, but they own a home in Williamsburg, and they're concerned about that delay. I don't want to afford a mortgage in Williamsburg and then go to Seattle and pay another mortgage or rent in Seattle. I can't afford to do that. So these ibuyers are more of a kind of a grease in the system. They're providing liquidity to a market to allow labor mobility to go to its highest and best use. So in a way, they make the market more efficient. But just in terms of price, what we found in our study is that they will cause the prices of markets to go up by about two point eight percent. And it's because they're demanding these homes. So there's greater demand. Basic Econ 101 push up the price. The interesting thing is they're not just pushing up the price in that local market. It's happened what we call spillover effects in the neighboring communities. So it makes not just that community a little bit more expensive, but it makes affordability go down in the neighborhoods that are right. Sharing those borders.

Ken White

Wow. Interesting. And I got the peek at the abstract of the paper. It looks so interesting when you're discussing ibuyers'. You also talk about another segment, buy to rent. What's that all about?

Mike Seiler

Sure. So the ibuyers are companies, and they get institutional money. They could be hedge fund, private equity. And the same is true for these buy to rent. The difference is that the buy to rent are not just providing a liquidity mechanism. They are typically going after these distressed properties, which means they can buy them for a much lower price in real estate. They say you make money on the buy, so they're following that that and they say, well, we're going to go in, we're going to buy these homes that are distressed. Then we're going to hold them for a longer period of time, so we're not as worried about market fluctuations in a way. We're going to be a property manager. We're going to buy them now at a cheap rate because of the maybe it's in foreclosure. We're going to own them for many, many years and rent them out. And then when the market goes even higher price than we could sell it for a profit. So we'll make money on both the cash flow and ideally, of course, in a cap or game situation.

Ken White

Yeah, no, no question. Yeah. You mentioned something that I thought before we started to record that that really just sounded so interesting. 3D printed homes. Tell us about that.

Mike Seiler

3D printed homes is what I consider to be one of the next hot things. It's a it's a proptech. So you've heard of fintech financial technology proptech just for property. And this proptech idea is something that has been really burgeoning. I know there have been some of these type homes in the past, but now we're talking about the ability to get a blueprint and really have a house built. And I'm talking about the frame of it all. Of course, you have to have someone go in and do all the appliances, the wiring separately. But as far as pouring the actual concrete of the house, imagine a very large 3D printer. So you have these rails on the perimeter of the house and then a large machine over above. It looks like maybe a cake decorator and it just kind of gently pours out concrete into whatever shape you want. The interesting thing about this is you're not just talking about a box design. So that's what you think of as a home. But you start putting two by fours next to each other in the air escapes to the vent. And so people in construction, they know about how inefficient some of these homes are. But with a 3D printing, there's no reason why you have to have right angles all the time. You know, imagine decorating a cake, you don't have to make right angles with your arm. Your arm can move freely in any way that you want it to. So think of very different designs that might be very appealing from an architectural standpoint to your eye. But also think of energy efficiency. Think of these homes as being produced much, much faster. So your wood is not being exposed to the elements for months on end during rainstorms and all that kind of stuff. And think also about the strength of it. So there are people who use ICF these hurricane-proof walls, and they form 11 inches thick and so forth. They're very nice because they can withstand very strong weather conditions. So imagine you're using kind of a commercial real estate grade material in a residential house that is going to withstand the weather. You would hope that that would translate to better efficiency because people want to escape through those thicker walls but also lower insurance rates. So don't just think of when I buy a house, what is my mortgage? It's not just principal and interest. It's also taxes and insurance. Right. And it's also repairing that house. You would imagine that the house would last a lot longer. So when you're thinking about putting money aside for roof repairs and anything with wall repair and so forth, that fund should be a little bit smaller. If you have a, you know, kind of the three wolves kind of thing, you know, the big bad wolf mentality. So a stronger home should be cheaper in the long run as well, not just more energy efficient. So those are some of the exciting things that are happening in the world of construction.

Ken White

So we'll put you on the spot. If you had your crystal ball a year from now, where do you think the market, the residential home market, might look like?

Mike Seiler

I imagine that here's my opinion on COVID. I think we obviously are winning the battle. If I imagine COVID being a really bad person. We have our boot on the throat of COVID, but we need to finish it off. And I don't know that COVID is going to be a thing may be where we have it, and then we don't. It's not like we're never going to see an outbreak again. For that reason. I don't think that we just snap our fingers, and we're done with COVID. So I don't see its effect on real estate is going away immediately. But I also, in my mind, to have this visualization of a snake that had swallowed a big pig, we need to get that pig digested, and then probably smaller animals will be consumed after that by the python. But I can see home prices continuing to go up, but far more gently. I don't think there's going to be a crash. I don't even know that they'll be necessarily a soft landing. But I definitely think that the escalated home prices cannot last forever. I mean, think about Newton's law. What goes up must come down. You don't want home prices going up too fast because then they have to come back down. It's the same type of stability that you look at in any part of the economy, of the economy. You don't want the economy to grow super fast because then it's going to end up contracting. What you want is a nice, predictable, steady stream of growth. Right now, we're in kind of a hyper normal growth in real estate. And I would like to see and think we're going to see it come down somewhat.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Professor Mike Seiler, then that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Companies, organizations, and businesses are seeking professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. Check out the William & Mary MBA program to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Mike Seiler, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Anna Milholland
Anna MilhollandEpisode 155: June 15, 2021
Good Books for Summer Vacation

Anna Milholland

Episode 155: June 15, 2021

Good Books for Summer Vacation

The masks are coming off, we're gathering with family and friends, and many people are making plans for a much needed and well-deserved summer vacation. Whether you're heading to the beach, the mountains, or the in-laws, if you're looking for the right book to take along we have the right person who has several recommendations in terms of good reads for your summer getaway. Anna Milholland is the business librarian at the McLeod Library at William & Mary's School of Business. She oversees the Library, its databases, books and publications, and works closely with students and faculty. We invited her to join us today to share the titles of six books she thinks you'll want to consider for your summer vacation. Some on the list are new, some not so new, some are fairly easy reads while others may be challenging. But each book on the list is relevant, interesting, and thought provoking.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn | Spotify

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • How "Leading Change" by John Kotter can help multiple industries in a post-COVID world
  • Why "Algorithms of Oppression: How Search Engines Reinforce Racism" by Safiya Umoja Noble is extremely relevant
  • How "Fish: A Proven Way to Boost Morale and Improve Results" can help managers motivate their team
  • What Karlos K. Hill asserts is the lasting legacy of the racial violence in "The 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre: A Photographic History"
  • How Glennon Doyle's "Untamed" can teach people to live their authentic selves
  • Why Anna would take Brene Brown's "Dare to Lead" to read on vacation
  • How the McLeod Library was able to successfully pivot to virtual services
  • What the library services will look like once everything goes back to "normal"
Transcript

Anna Milholland: Good Books for Summer Vacation TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Well, the masks are coming off. We're gathering with family and friends, and many people are making plans for a much-needed and well-deserved summer vacation. Whether you're heading to the beach, the mountains, or the in-laws, if you're looking for the right book to take along, we have the right person who has several recommendations in terms of good reads for your summer getaway. Anna Milholland is the business librarian at the McLeod Library at William & Mary School of Business. She oversees the library, its databases, books, and publications and works closely with students and faculty. We invited her to join us today to share the titles of six books she thinks you'll want to consider for your summer vacation. Some on the list are new, some not so new, some are fairly easy reads, while others may be challenging. But each book on the list is relevant, interesting, and thought-provoking. Here's our conversation with the business librarian at William & Mary School of Business, Anna Milholland.

Ken White

Anna, thanks very much for sharing your time. We should say it should be quiet today. Graduation just occurred as we're recording. So it's the day after the big storm. What a great weekend it was. Right. It's so nice to see all those grads get their diplomas. And now it's nice and quiet again.

Anna Milholland

Absolutely.

Ken White

Yeah.

Anna Milholland

Yes. We have this giant celebration and then a day of recovery.

Ken White

And you work closely with faculty and students. So, you know, you get to know everybody. So it's a big day for you as well.

Anna Milholland

I do. Yes. Graduation is always a campus-wide celebration, and the library certainly takes part in that. We really relish in our student's successes. We recognize how hard it is to graduate from William & Mary, and certainly, we celebrate with our faculty as well.

Ken White

Yeah, it was a big weekend. It's nice to have you here. So now for a lot of folks heading off to vacation. Right. And it's always nice to take a good book or two with you. And so thanks very much for bringing a few suggestions with us. In terms of your list. Why don't you share it with us? What do you have? What are you recommending?

Anna Milholland

Absolutely. So my first is a classic business text, Leading Change by John Kotter. Dr. Kotter is the leading change management expert. He's on faculty at Harvard Business School. In this particular book, which was initially published in the mid-90s, is considered by many to be sort of the defining change management text.

Ken White

Yeah.

Anna Milholland

There was this recent commentary from the Canadian Medical Education Journal, which discussed how a hospital emergency room employee, Dr. Kotter's eight-step process for change management during COVID, which is really inspiring. I think this is one that can be used and is used across industries.

Ken White

Yeah, what has not changed.

Anna Milholland

Right.

Ken White

Especially the last couple of years, right?

Anna Milholland

Yes.

Ken White

Interesting.

Anna Milholland

And we use this text in libraries, too, and I think it's really helpful, and it resonates just across the board as we all kind of consider how to create a sense of urgency around a change, how to build that guiding coalition, forming that strategic vision and initiatives, enlisting volunteers, removing barriers and enabling action when we do that, generating short term wins, which are just critical for any success to continue in sustaining that acceleration and then instituting the change.

Ken White

It could be an interesting read, especially because we all just went through a considerable amount of change.

Anna Milholland

Yes, yes.

Ken White

So you're looking back and forward.

Anna Milholland

Yes, absolutely.

Ken White

Excellent.

Anna Milholland

I think we will continue to see monumental change. So, yes, it's a great piece for reflection, but it's also a great piece for propelling us.

Ken White

Wonderful. So the first one is leading change. How about your second recommendation?

Anna Milholland

So this I would classify as my all-around must-read for summer. It's called Algorithms of Oppression How Search Engines Reinforce Racism by Safiya Umoja Noble. It's published by NYU Press. And Dr. Noble is a professor at the University of Southern California. And she came to academia with an extensive background in working in advertising and marketing for Fortune 100 accounts.

Ken White

What do you like about it?

Anna Milholland

Yeah, so this particular book was published after years of study about search engines, particularly Google, though Dr. Nobel does include examples from others and how Google queries for black and Latino girls and women reveal and reflect systematic racism, which is it's really interesting. It's incredibly relevant, as it always has been. And it's not an easy beach read, but I think it is a book that requires attention and focus and personal interrogation about biases, and it's 100 percent worth it.

Ken White

And relevant again.

Anna Milholland

Absolutely.

Ken White

Right. But the first two seem extremely relevant. We can tie it right to what's happening today.

Anna Milholland

Absolutely.

Ken White

Interesting. Now your third recommendation.

Anna Milholland

Sure. This one is for motivation, motivating your team. I think, again, this year has been challenging for many of us. And as we are returning to the workplace in many places, we're kind of redefining who our teams are again because we've existed in this virtual environment, and now we're face to face. So a book that I have loved since I was in grad school is called Fish A Remarkable Way to Boost Morale and Improve Results. And it's by Stephen C. Lundin, Harry Paul, and John Christensen. And I first read it, as I mentioned, as part of a library management course. But the philosophies and attitudes, I think, just really continue to resonate. I particularly love the concepts of choosing your attitude. I think that's so critical for coming to work each day and for framing your workday, but also play because it's so important for creating a workplace where people want to be and where they can be their best creative selves.

Ken White

Yeah, again, relevant. Wow. This is what's happening today. Right. And work is changing so much. So fantastic.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Anna Milholland in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The Post COVID World will require new skills and new approaches. And those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different MBA formats, including the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive, all taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty, the William & Mary MBA, will prepare you to succeed and lead in our new world. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary. Now back to our conversation with Anna Milholland on Good reads for your summer vacation.

Ken White

How about your fourth?

Anna Milholland

Yes, this is what I would call the twenty twenty-one-themed read, and I want to preface it with this. So amidst Jim Crow, segregation, and racial violence against African-Americans, Tulsa's Greenwood District, a center of African-American commerce which was also known as Black Wall Street, thrived. In light of the one 100th anniversary of the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. I want to highlight a book that I haven't read, but I want to read. And it's called The 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre A Photographic History by Karlos K. Hill. Dr. Hill's research expertise and scholarship centers on racial violence. And he is a professor at the University of Oklahoma. And is it okay if I read the description from the OU press?

Ken White

Yeah, please. That's great.

Anna Milholland

Okay, here's an excerpt. Historian and Black Studies Professor Karlos K. Hill presents a range of photographs taken before, during, and after the massacre, mostly by white photographers. Some of the images are published here for the first time. Comparing these photographs to those taken elsewhere in the United States of lynchings. The author makes a powerful case for terming the 1921 outbreak not a riot but a massacre. White civilians, in many cases assisted or condoned by local and state law enforcement, perpetuated a systematic and coordinated attack on black Tulsans and their property. Despite all the violence and devastation, Black Tulsan's rebuilt the Greenwood district brick by brick, by brick, by brick. By the mid 20th century, Greenwood had reached a new zenith with nearly 250 black-owned and black-operated businesses. Today, the citizens of Greenwood, with support from the broader community, continue to work diligently to revive the neighborhood once known as Black Wall Street. As a result, Hill asserts, the most important legacy of the Tulsa race massacre is the grit and resilience of the black survivors of racist violence.

Ken White

No doubt a light read this sounds powerful.

Anna Milholland

It really does. It sounds like an incredible read, especially considering the anniversary of the race massacre is May 31st through June 1st of 2021.

Ken White

And your fifth recommendation?

Anna Milholland

My fifth is Untamed by Glennon Doyle. I want to say that I did not read this book. I listened to it, and I don't listen to audiobooks very often. But this one was amazing. So I was really on pins and needles waiting for this book to come out last year because I followed Doyle for a long time from when she was a blogger, and she authored a blog called Momastery. And this memoir was really a story of her living into her values and living into her authentic self. And I think after a year at home, a year of change, and a year of chaos, for many of us, it might have also been an opportunity for us to figure out what our values are and maybe do a deeper dive into who we are authentically and who we want to be. So I highly recommend this, and I recommend it as an audiobook because Glennon Doyle narrates it.

Ken White

Yeah, excellent. I'm going to put you on the spot. If you were going to leave for the beach today, what would you take with you? Something on this list or maybe something else?

Anna Milholland

Oh gosh. I would take Brene Brown's dare to lead brave work, tough conversations, whole hearts. I listen to one of her audiobooks actually about parenting. And it really, again, it really struck me. And I was able to apply many of the principles that she mentioned in my own life. And so I've long wanted to read this. I think it would be what I would take.

Ken White

Fantastic six excellent recommendations. And while we have you here, let's shift gears a little bit. You know, on our podcast, it seems almost on every episode we're talking with somebody in an industry and in a sector that is that's been disrupted. It's evolving. It's transforming. Your space I think if someone has not been to their alma mater and their business school library, they're not ready for what they're going to see. There aren't stacks of books anymore. If someone were to ask you what's the library look like in the business school, could you give them a, you know, sort of an explanation?

Anna Milholland

I would say we are a place where disruptive change happens. And it's funny. When we all went when we when the world shut down, and many of us left and began working from home, I think there were there were concerns across the board about how we would all adapt to doing our work from home.

Ken White

Yeah.

Anna Milholland

Librarians, because we are so closely tied with IT, library, and information science, we had already pivoted. So we offer so many resources virtually, including our databases but also our research consultations. And I think that we were really adept and prepared for what that shift from physical to virtual would look like.

Ken White

Yeah. How do you spend a typical day with students and faculty? What do you do?

Anna Milholland

So I still work with books, but academic libraries, I think, are really centered on the research and curricular needs of our faculty and students. So this might involve engaging with work like Bibliometrics, which involves benchmarking faculty scholarship against our own brand, as well as other institutions. Thinking about how much our faculty are producing, how many citations those works are garnering, and so forth. But it also includes teaching students and teaching faculty about the resources that we have. So we I work with students in one on one and group research consultations via Zoom right now on finding appropriate resources that would meet their research question. But it also goes beyond just the discovery of the content. So we work with students on how they might analyze and use some of this information to create new knowledge. With faculty, we also can help with and do help with research as well. So it really runs the gamut. We license materials. We're copyright experts. We field questions about open education resources and open access, and where faculty and students can publish their content. So it I would say, like the scholarly communication side of the libraries, is really it's really grown in the last 15 to 20 years. And the publishing side, and we're all part of that.

Ken White

The typical, say, undergraduate student who uses the library, what do they tend to be coming for? Is there something they use more than other items?

Anna Milholland

Sure. I would say that many of them are looking for our undergrads are really smart. I should just say our undergraduate students are brilliant. So I'm not sure William & Mary, typical undergrad, is is analogous to another school's typical undergrad. But our students are looking for data. They're looking for a primary source market research about an industry or about a consumer. They are looking for scholarly articles, many of them. I work very closely with our marketing research undergraduate course. And so, they are looking for a primary source scholarship about marketing research methodologies that they could potentially apply to survey methods and so on.

Ken White

So some printed materials, some traditional kind of research, but also the database.

Anna Milholland

Absolutely.

Ken White

Databases seem to be huge.

Anna Milholland

They're massively huge. So we have about 50 databases that are I would consider to be business-centric. We also license a lot of data through a variety of providers. And, yeah, our students, they long for it. I mean, they desperately need data to make good decisions and to make their research fuller. So we work with them. Yeah. To on a lot of those things.

Ken White

But part of your job is to determine which data are important.

Anna Milholland

Absolutely.

Ken White

To give them access.

Anna Milholland

And that's all part of the research question. So we do a research interview, rather. We do what's called a research interview with students whenever they come in for a consultation, or they come to the desk, and we ask a lot of probing questions to figure out exactly what they're working on and exactly what data they need to be able to complete their assignment.

Ken White

And this can be costly.

Anna Milholland

Oh, data are expensive.

Ken White

Right.

Anna Milholland

Yes. Our subscriptions, I mean, cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Ken White

Right.

Anna Milholland

And that's just for the business school. That's not considering all of the other databases and information that students at William & Mary, students, faculty, and staff at William & Mary have access to through William & Mary Libraries.

Ken White

What do you see in the year ahead as we and I put the word normal in quotes? How do you see the year ahead? Any major changes in terms of the library and the services and how it's used?

Anna Milholland

You know, I think that we're still all trying to figure out what back to work will look like.

Ken White

Yeah.

Anna Milholland

I think across the board, though, I would say that the library services will remain consistent. We are still offering course reserves. We still offer students and faculty in our community the opportunity to come to the library and browse for books. We still will offer research consultations. How we do, that might be a little bit different, but our same core services will be the same.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Anna Milholland once again. Her six recommendations for summer reading include Leading Change by John Kotter, Algorithms of Oppression by Safiya Noble; Fish A Proven Way to Boost Morale and Improve Results by Lundin, Paul, and Christiensen; The 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre, A Photographic History by Karlos Hill; Untamed by Glennon Doyle; and finally Dare to Lead Brave Work, Tough Conversations, Whole Hearts by Brene Brown. Well, that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Companies, organizations, and businesses are seeking professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. Check out the William & Mary MBA program to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Anna Milholland, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Micah West
Micah WestEpisode 154: May 17, 2021
The Class of 2021

Micah West

Episode 154: May 17, 2021

The Class of 2021

It's graduation season, and if there's a class that deserves to be celebrated, it's the class of 2021. This group experienced higher education like no one before them. Most of these new grads began school before the pandemic when college campuses operated mostly in a face-to-face environment. Then the pandemic forced schools to quickly shift to virtual learning, and eventually for some schools a mix of virtual and in-person instruction. Things were different on campuses, and for many students things were challenging. The class of 2021 was forced to be flexible and resilient. Micah West is a member of the MBA class of 2021 at William & Mary. A BYU graduate, he entered the MBA program after working in digital marketing and e-commerce for organizations like eBay, overstock.com, the Dress Barn. In addition to being a full time grad student, he's a husband and father of four school-age daughters. He joins us today to talk about the class of 2021, their experiences, and the lessons they'll take away from attending school during a pandemic.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn | Spotify

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What Micah was hoping to get out of his MBA
  • How COVID changed the landscape of higher learning
  • What it's like to learn over zoom
  • Why Micah elected to remain in class via zoom during hybrid learning
  • What were classroom discussions like over zoom
  • How were team assignments dealt with in a remote setting
  • How are internships managed during a pandemic
  • What it was like going to school and raising a family during the pandemic
Transcript

Micah West: The Class of 2021 TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. It's graduation season. And if there's a class that deserves to be celebrated, it's the class of 2021. This group experienced higher education like no one before them. Most of these new grads began school before the pandemic when college campuses operated mostly in a face-to-face environment. Then the pandemic forced schools to quickly shift to virtual learning and, eventually, for some schools, a mix of virtual and in-person instruction. Things were different on campuses, and for many students, things were challenging. The class of 20 21 was forced to be flexible and resilient. Micah West is a member of the MBA class of 2021 at William & Mary. A BYU graduate, he entered the MBA program after working in digital marketing and e-commerce for organizations like eBay, Overstock.com, and Dress Barn. In addition to being a full-time grad student, he's a husband and father of four school-aged daughters. He joins us today to talk about the class of 2021, its experiences, and the lessons it'll take away from attending school during a pandemic. Here's our conversation with Micah West.

Ken White

Well, Micah, thanks very much for sharing your time. First of all, are you done? Are you officially done now?

Micah West

Today is the last day I've got one more final.

Ken White

So I can't congratulate you just quite yet.

Micah West

Yeah, yeah.

Ken White

Well, I will. I will say congratulations. That's really exciting. Graduation's coming up. Will you participate.

Micah West

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Ken White

Wonderful. Wonderful. So you came to business school after a good, good career. You had some great jobs, and back in August of nineteen, you decided to pursue your MBA. What were you thinking it would be like because it wasn't exactly what you thought it would be, but what were you hoping to experience?

Micah West

Yeah, I was really hoping to come in and network with incredible individuals and, you know, come out the other side with a bit of a career change, honestly. And, you know, to the, for the most part, that's what's happened. I mean, there's been some really amazing people in the program that I've met, and I'm looking forward to continuing those relationships postgraduation.

Ken White

A lot of people in your who were pursuing MBAs, undergraduates not right now, are saying, I didn't sign up for this. You know, this was really different. What were some of the unexpected things that that you experienced?

Micah West

Well, COVID was huge, right? I think for everyone, you know, you come into a full-time in-person MBA program, and then COVID hits and, you know, everybody's trying to adjust and well, you know, we went to this complete remote schooling for a while and then we kind of switched to hybrid. But I mean, you just come in and roll with the punches, really. But I mean, the class the professors were incredible. They adjusted well, you know, and you still felt like you got the learnings out of the program, which is, you know, what you came here for in the first place.

Ken White

That transition was pretty quick. I mean, for all of us, of course, all industries. And one day, we're all together. The next day we're not, and here we had a little bit of a break because of spring break. And then suddenly, you were in Zoom world. What was it like to learn that way?

Micah West

You know, it was interesting. I think, to start with, you're fine, right? I mean, you jump in, and it's the same concentration levels if you were in class. I think the things that you miss ultimately are just the small conversations that you get to have before class and after class, the conversations, you know, the small talk that you'd have with the professors. So it's more of a formal situation, at least it was in the beginning. And then I think we all learned to relax a little bit and, you know, take it in stride and have fun. But, yeah, it was challenging, I think, in the beginning, but still good.

Ken White

Then after a set period of time, William & Mary's MBA program was able to go hybrid, as we call it. You could go to class in person, or you could stay on Zoom. You elected to stay on Zoom.

Micah West

I did.

Ken White

Yeah. Why did you make that choice?

Micah West

You know, I was by that time I had acclimated to online, and I thought to myself, you know, I don't have to come and pay for parking, and you know, I can still get the same education, you know, online as I can kind of in person. I've built decent relationships already, kind of having that in-person experience at the beginning of class. And, you know, I figured out a way by that time to, you know, still not work. And so I was like, hey, we're golden. You know, we can. I can do this from home and still get all the benefits, which was great.

Ken White

What were classroom discussions like?

Micah West

It's always interesting on Zoom because you've got, you know, just the reality of it. You've got people that are really engaged and some that are not. And so, you know, it's the people that are engaged make the experience worth it, you know, and, you know, you try to be one of those people so that the that experience for everyone is really good. But I mean, we had amazing discussions. Ron Hess, I remember, you know, joking with us and just really diving into subjects and doing learnings that you didn't think you were going to be able to have that first semester during, you know, during the Zoom calls. And man, it was just it was great. Kudos to the professors for making that shift so quickly.

Ken White

And Ron Hess is a marketing professor here at William & Mary. So you're listening to your professor. But I've seen in a number of calls. Students will start talking to each other on the chat function.

Micah West

Absolutely.

Ken White

How do you manage both of those?

Micah West

Yeah, no, I think it's great. I mean, there's always the in student to student banter going on behind the scenes.

Ken White

Right.

Micah West

So I've got one of my buddies, Dan Kelly. He you know, we're that's kind of the whole class. We're listening to Professor, and we're making comments.

Ken White

Right.

Micah West

You know, in the back row, as it were.

Ken White

And what was interesting is a lot of faculty initially were very worried about that. I remember all of us getting together. Do we turn chat off? Do we leave it on and found leaving it on was great. I mean, students really enjoyed this. And it wasn't like they were talking about what's on ESPN.com.

Micah West

Exactly.

Ken White

These were really good conversations.

Micah West

Yeah.

Ken White

Yeah.

Micah West

Yeah, you're having these conversations, I think, about the topics in class and, you know, there's some other joking stuff

Ken White

Sure.

Micah West

going on, of course. But, you know, it just made the environment fun, and it kept it real still. Which was nice.

Ken White

What about team assignments? Because an MBA is so much teamwork. How is that in a remote setting?

Micah West

It was it was great. I mean, given Google Docs and given, you know, one drive, Microsoft one drive, I mean, you were able to go in. You know, the nice thing, I think one of the learnings for me coming out of this is just remote team management. Right. And you get in, and it's like, okay, I've done this enough times now where I know that we've got to on this document that we're working on this for this assignment. We've got to make sure that all everybody's clear on, like, what their part is when things are due. And so it's like you almost write this mini agenda for workplan almost on the top of your document. Right.

Ken White

Yeah.

Micah West

So that everybody's clear on what and then everybody can go back to that because you have these conversations on Zoom and you forget things, obviously, because you've got so much going on. Sure. So anyway, it's just been great. I mean, the I think that aspect has been good, especially going into the workforce. I'm going to GSK.

Ken White

Right.

Micah West

We're all remote still. So, I mean, you still have this remote work environment that we've been prepped for, which has been great. Yeah.

Ken White

So do you think the work world and the education world will embrace some of the remote functions that we experienced this year when things are, quote, back to normal?

Micah West

Yeah, I mean, you've got Google, you've got Facebook. I mean, there's a bunch of different companies, even some of the management consulting firms or, you know, a lot of them are remote or going to this hybrid workforce. GSK was a part-time remote. They were a 3-2 before. And so the switch to full remote wasn't that big of a deal. And I'm assuming they'll get back to kind of a three-two. But yeah, I mean, it's I can totally see that shifting.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Micah West of the class of 2021 in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The post COVID world will require new skills and new approaches. Those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different formats in the MBA, including the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive, all taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty. The William & Mary MBA will prepare you to succeed and lead in our new world. Check out the MBA program at William & Mary. Now back to our conversation with Micah West from the class of 2021.

Ken White

And the job is a huge aspect of the MBA, and normally you meet with recruiters face to face, there are career fairs, people come here. That was all turned upside down. Where did you intern?

Micah West

GSK.

Ken White

And then how did you get the internship? How did you manage that in this in this different way?

Micah West

Yeah. So luckily we I went to National Black before COVID.

Ken White

The National Black MBA Career Fair, which is this huge career fair for MBA students all across the country.

Micah West

Correct.

Ken White

Yeah.

Micah West

And it was the last. It's a two-day fair for those who don't know.

Ken White

Yeah.

Micah West

And I, you know, I went in talking to kind of my core, wanting to talk to all the core people that I was interested in interning with. And I'm walking out at four o'clock. The conference ends at four o'clock. I'm walking out at like four o five the last day.

Ken White

Wow.

Micah West

And GSK is like I'm walking past their booth. And they just happened to catch my eye. And I'm like, you know, I haven't talked with them, and I don't really know who they are.

Ken White

Yeah.

Micah West

And so I went and spoke with them, and I was like, this is exactly what I've been looking for. And they loved my resumé. And so it was like this match made in heaven. But I it was just happenstance on the very last day, the final hour, which was just, you know, you just go and go and go for two days. And

Ken White

Yeah.

Micah West

it was great. I did go to National Black remotely the second time.

Ken White

Right.

Micah West

And I'll tell you, the experience was not good.

Ken White

Right, it couldn't be the same. I mean, that is such a phenomenal event where we take all of our full-time MBA students every year. Chicago, I think it is next year. And there are hundreds and hundreds of fantastic companies. They're looking for MBAs. It is just the quintessential speed dating.

Micah West

It is. It's fantastic. Yeah. So I mean for people that I would suggest if you're a full-time MBA student, like go

Ken White

Oh yeah.

Micah West

go in person. Like, the opportunities are incredible there.

Ken White

So what was your internship? Was it mostly remote?

Micah West

It was mostly remote. Yeah, it was all remote. In fact, they before COVID, they flew us up for a weekend, and we were able to kind of meet the teams and meet our fellow interns. And then everything switched because of COVID, and we were remote for the summer, and it was still great, you know, it was still fantastic.

Ken White

What will you be doing?

Micah West

Brand management.

Ken White

Great.

Micah West

So I just got my brand assignment yesterday, actually.

Ken White

Yeah. Excellent. Excellent. So you, like many MBA students, have a family?

Micah West

I do.

Ken White

And you have children who are in school. What was that like managing? I can't imagine our children are grown, and we were even talking about it recently as one graduated from college. What would it have been like that when, wow, what was that like?

Micah West

The first month was fascinating. So I four daughters, a set of twins that are in first grade. I've got a second-grader and a fourth-grader. So all in all, in elementary school, luckily, three of the girls are extremely studious. And I've got one that, you know, needs a little bit of handholding—our sports girl. But yeah, it was interesting. They you know, they were my wife was working, and so they were doing remote school on Zoom, and I was on remote school. And so I literally had to go back and forth between their classes and my classes for a good couple of weeks, month. And it was pretty stressful for the first month. But, you know, after that, my wife was able to transition a little bit, and she took over the day-to-day, and it got better, which was great. But yeah, it was a little hairy there for about a month.

Ken White

Yeah, I'm sure one of the things that I think was unexpected or at least people didn't think about, but many experienced was simply the bandwidth at home. Everybody needed Internet. Did you have any problems?

Micah West

Yeah, all five of us were on computers. So, you know, it's, and we had a we ran into a couple of challenges, but luckily there was enough. The girls had like set times, and we had set times. And so we were able to mitigate that, you know, for the most part. But yeah, there were definitely some bandwidth challenges.

Ken White

You know you seemed to have weathered the storm, so to speak, quite well. You know, there are a lot of people in school, whether undergrad, MBA, Ph.D. programs had a rough, rough time. It was just very difficult. What would you do? Did any classmates come your way and say, I'm struggling here? And if so, what kind of advice were you able to share with them?

Micah West

You know, you could just tell that people were, you know, we're having some challenges and, you know, especially with internships and other things. And, you know, we had a lot of internship, I wouldn't say a lot, but they're a fair percentage of internships that dropped out. People had internships, and then, you know, companies had to pull back because of COVID. And, you know, I just remember reaching out to everyone on my LinkedIn network that I possibly could to say, hey, what is your company doing? I spent hours, like, just trying to do. Because you like you feel so bad like you've got these just really incredible people in your program, and you want to help them, and it turned out great. I mean, it ended up working out for everybody that I know of.

Ken White

Yeah.

Micah West

But, you know, it's just. Yeah, I mean, you band together as part of that network and, you know, try to help each other and, you know, try to have each other's backs as much as possible.

Ken White

I mean, this has to be the most resilient class ever in the history of education. I mean, you guys have really been through it. So there have been some definitely some highs and lows and some challenges. Does it bring teams together at the end? For the most part, we are helping each other and those instances.

Micah West

Yeah, I think you have to. I mean, you know, you've always got the people that just give their 120 percent. And then, you know, every once in a while, you get somebody who doesn't, and the rest of the team bands together. And that's what I mean. You get it done. It's like what you have to do. It's like, you know, if you're in a job and, you know, you work with those teammates that are just stellar, and you get it done.

Ken White

Are there lessons that you and your classmates will take away from your experience? Because it was rather unique.

Micah West

I think some of the biggest lessons for me were just around the remote work managing teams remotely. And I think just taking a step back and recognizing that you know, everybody's kind of going through something different, and you have to give people a little bit of space to be able to kind of work through things on their own. And just, you know, you'd be a you just support people as much as you can and meet them where they are. You know, I think those are some of the bigger takeaways for me.

Ken White

Which is good advice in any environment, whether you're in school or at work, too. Yeah. So graduation's in a couple of weeks you'll be there. I'm sure it'll be a great day for you.

Micah West

It will be, yeah. Hopefully have the family there, and we're waiting on one ticket, but we'll get there.

Ken White

Yeah. And we're praying for 70 degrees and sunny skies.

Micah West

That's right, exactly.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Micah West, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Companies, organizations, and businesses are seeking professionals to lead in our post COVID world. Professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively, and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program. Offered in four formats the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive. Check out the William & Mary MBA program to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Micah West, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead. And to the class of 2021 in high schools, colleges, and universities all over the world, a heartfelt congratulations.

More Podcast Episodes

 Henry Broaddus
Henry BroaddusEpisode 153: May 1, 2021
College Admissions & the Pandemic

Henry Broaddus

Episode 153: May 1, 2021

College Admissions & the Pandemic

College Admissions. Like many other sectors, it has seen significant disruption this past year. Admissions offices across the United States are in the midst of a cycle the likes of which they'd never seen. First, COVID-19 hit which kept college-bound high school students from visiting campuses. Then, some high schools moved from letter grades to pass/fail grades. Then, many colleges and universities waived the required SAT and ACT. Those events and others have changed the admissions landscape considerably this year. As a result, some schools like William & Mary have seen significant increases in applications while others experienced dramatic drops. Henry Broaddus is Vice President for Strategic Initiatives and Public Affairs at William & Mary. He spent over a decade in the admissions profession at Dartmouth and William & Mary. Now admissions and financial aid are a part of his leadership portfolio. He joins us today to talk about the pandemic's effect on high school students, their families, and college admissions here at William & Mary and across the country.

Podcast (audio)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • Why are some universities seeing more of an influx of applicants than others
  • What have been the biggest factors for the increase in applicants
  • How have universities adapted to applicants not being able to visit campus
  • What is the Common App and how has it had an effect on admissions during the pandemic
  • How have admissions formulas changed during the pandemic
  • What have universities and colleges done to ensure a diverse incoming class
  • What does the future hold for college admissions
Transcript

Henry Broaddus: College Admissions & the Pandemic TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. College admissions. Like many other sectors, it has seen significant disruption this past year. Admissions offices across the United States are in the midst of a cycle the likes of which they've never seen. First COVID-19 hit, which kept college-bound high school students from visiting campuses. Then some high schools moved from letter grades to pass-fail grades. Then many colleges and universities waived the required SAT and ACT. Well, those events and others have changed the admissions landscape considerably this year. As a result, some schools like William & Mary have seen significant increases in applications, while others experienced dramatic drops. Henry Broaddus is Vice President for Strategic Initiatives and Public Affairs at William & Mary. He spent over a decade in the admissions profession at Dartmouth and William & Mary. Now admissions and financial aid are a part of his leadership portfolio. He joins us today to talk about the pandemic's effect on high school students, their families, and college admissions here at William & Mary and across the country. Here's our conversation with Henry Broaddus.

Ken White

Well, Henry, thank you very much for taking the time out of your busy schedule. Seems like everybody's so busy today in our Zoom world. So, thanks very much. I'm sure your schedule is just as packed as it's ever been.

Henry Broaddus

Well, it's delightful to be with you, Ken. And what's fun about this Zoom is this is a little bit more like one of those hall conversations that one would have when going between meetings. So this is the life.

Ken White

Exactly. Yeah. Thank you. So much written about college admissions this year in the media, it seems like that's the big topic. What's going on? We hear a lot about test-optional, what's happening with admissions, and what we're seeing is many top-tier universities are seeing an influx of applications. Other universities, not so much. What's happening? What's causing that?

Henry Broaddus

Sure. Well, it's a great question to start with. And we are seeing a very interesting set of dynamics in these applicant pools. The Common Application saw an increase of applications submitted this year that was at about 11 percent. But the increase in applicants was less than three percent. And as you point out, there was clustering of where you were seeing this kind of growth. So here at William & Mary, we had a twenty-three percent increase in our applicant pool, which was substantial. That puts, as you would expect, strain on process. But elsewhere, it's been uneven. And I think it's fair to say that the most selective places, flagship universities, flagship, both in terms of size and stature and also urban campuses prior to the pandemic were where a lot of the action was you know there's going to be some interesting disruption, and we're going to still see where things fall out. But that's been where the growth occurs. And one other thing I'd point out, Ken, is that the decision to go test-optional has been one of the things that has stoked the growth in these pools because it's really removing a barrier. So more students are electing to take a shot at a pool in that way. And then another factor that I think you have to take into consideration is the inability to have visited campuses in the same way and pare down college lists. So I think many students are taking more of a broad net approach just because they've not had that ability to evaluate which ones are really the best fit.

Ken White

Yeah, wow. Didn't think of the fact people can't get to campus, but William & Mary, along with some other schools, did some pretty clever came up with some pretty clever ideas so prospective students could see campus and get a bit of a feel, right.

Henry Broaddus

Well absolutely. I think every college and university has been going through reinvention of what outreach and recruitment looks like in these new minutes, not unlike what you and your colleagues in the business school are doing with classes that are hybrid and remote. So actually, it's interesting as I speak to you. Although we are not yet running in-person campus tours through our undergraduate admissions offices, we are, in fact, offering four varieties of tours. So there is a video tour, there is a virtual tour with even richer media. There is a self-guided tour that's available to a visiting family that wants to walk around on its own. And we do have tours for which one signs up that are guided by a student, but they're more like a slide show and with a student presenting via Zoom.

Ken White

Yeah, interesting time for families to look at schools. You briefly mentioned the Common App. I think a lot of people know what that is, but many people might not. Can you give us a definition on what that is and how that sort of changed things?

Henry Broaddus

Absolutely. And you're right to point out that it's still going to be new. I expect a lot of your listeners really only about a generation old. So so the Common App started in the mid-70s, but it really took off late later than that and became the ubiquitous tool to use to apply to colleges and universities. And the benevolent function of the Common App is that it reduces the strain of what it takes to submit individual applications. But there is a downside to that. The University of Chicago, for example, was one of the later adopters of the Common App and for a time really prided itself on saying, look, when you apply to us, we don't want you to be applying to college generally, we want you to be applying to the University of Chicago specifically because you've done the research and you see it as a match. So there are pros and cons. I think overall, most in the profession would say that the Common App has done a great job of creating more access, enabling students to grow lists in responsible ways. But others would say it has led to a kind of shotgun approach, that means you're going to see declines in yield, more volatility within the system, and many students that will just misuse the instrument thinking kind of a fallacy that if I just apply to enough of these highly selective places, at least one of them is going to take me. These aren't random trials or rolls of the die. So that's just not how it works.

Ken White

Yeah, we look at the test-optional, so many schools have embraced, how does the admissions profession and universities in general, how do they view the test? Why is the SAT the ACT? Why are those important today?

Henry Broaddus

Yeah, excellent question. And even prior to the pandemic, this was a conversation we were having internally at William & Mary? And the only thing that the SAT is intended to measure is not even to measure, to predict is freshman year GPA. Now, what we know and what the College Board itself shows through its own research is that high school GPA by itself is more predictive of first-year college GPA than the standardized test. But having both is more predictive than either in isolation. And actually, at William & Mary, we had a ten-year study of research looking at a single school system in Virginia with more than twenty-seven hundred data points in this study. Where we were looking at how predictive is the GPA from high school, how predictive is the SAT for a William & Mary first-year GPA? And what we concluded was that, yes, having both adds predictive value, but having one or the other, but not both is pretty close. And so the debate we were having is, is it worth it in terms of all the other things that a standardized testing requirement imposes on families to get that modest additional predictive value? And what we also know is it's more predictive for some groups than others. So we know, for example, low- income students tend to outperform what their test score predicts. Many students of color, same thing. This is okay in the context of our process as long as there is keen awareness of that limitation of the measure. And so one of the things that I would say is there is great acknowledgment of the flaws of the test, but that doesn't mean it's useless as long as that awareness is being brought to bear. So we were again in the midst of this debate when then the pandemic created, I think, what was a clear and compelling reason for at least one year to be test-optional because students did not and did not have access and could not get access to a test administration. We went further than that, as did several others and said, if we're going to do that, let's really embrace this as an opportunity to see if we can conduct a test-optional process, not the same thing, by the way, of saying we don't want standardized tests where there's no rule, but that we're not going to require it for all of our applicants. And we've committed to a three-year pilot. We just finished the first cycle of that with the class that will arrive here next fall. The reason to do three years is that we that will give us time to see their first-year GPA, evaluate any unforeseen consequences of this ship, and then make a longer-term decision about what the right role for testing is in our process.

Ken White

Interesting. You know what? I think people who are unfamiliar with admissions find fascinating is in that world, there are formulas that the admissions professionals use to determine. Okay, we have a number of apps over here. This is how many we need to accept and so forth. Is that, I assume, sort of turned a little upside down this year because of all the changes.

Henry Broaddus

It's turned a lot upside down. And I think maybe you'd say there used to be formulas that one could apply here. So the year under pandemic. So going back to last spring when we recognized that we were going to have a really crazy year ahead of us, even then, I don't think we saw just how volatile it was going to become. So give you again an example in the context of William & Mary; usually, our admission team will see what you refer to as summer melt on the magnitude of about one hundred students. So we're enrolling a class of 15 20. You would get you'd want to get north of that by about one hundred so that you're buffered against waitlist activity elsewhere. Students who decide to take a gap year. Other reasons that students are going to fall out between that May one deposit deadline and convocation. In the cycle that that ended when students arrived in the fall of 20, we had lost more than two hundred and fifty students to summer melt. So really shot holes in the predictive value of that formula. And I think the great question is whether the cycle we're in now, where we're in the month of April, the cruelest month, as T.S. Elliot would say, but the one that puts admission officers on the edge of their chairs because they're waiting to see what choices students will make. The question is, will we see a rebound or a rebound to kind of the old yield, or is last year the indicator of the new normal?

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Henry Broaddus in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The Post COVID World will require new skills and new approaches. And those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different MBA formats, including the full- time, the part-time, the online, and the executive, all taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty, the William & Mary MBA, will prepare you to succeed and lead in our new world. Check out the MBA programs at William & Mary. Now back to our conversation with Henry Broaddus.

Ken White

I don't think the average person has any idea how tough the admissions world is. Wow, it's brutal, and it's a profession, you know, it takes a lot of education and an experience to do this the right way, doesn't it?

Henry Broaddus

Yeah, absolutely. And I think the reality of it is Ken that at some point, the craft of building statistical models gives way to the instincts of something like a gambler. And you're really trying to read what the signals are based on a variety of many of them highly qualitative indicators. Tim Wolfe, our dean of admission, is a master at that. But you are right. It is a is an art as well as a science.

Ken White

Yeah. Now I know you and I, you were talking to some of our business school faculty and staff recently, and you were talking about some of the efforts William & Mary has put into place to ensure that those incoming students include a diverse population as well. Tell us about some of the things that the school is doing. It's pretty cool stuff.

Henry Broaddus

Yeah, absolutely. Well, obviously, we take very seriously the obligation to enroll a diverse class. We know that that's going to create the best learning environment for all of our students. A great letter Emmerson writes, where he says, I pay the schoolmaster, but it's the school mates to educate my son. And I think what we all know about a great undergraduate residential college experience is that it's those late-night dorm conversations. It's getting challenged by somebody who approaches a problem from a very different perspective or background that leads to the best, the best outcome. So it is critically important, and it's critically important for us as a public university. So we've been looking at a variety of ways to help do even better on that measure, one that I'll just give you as an example because we're in our first year of it. And it's something that that I'm just enormously excited about is our partnership with the Posse Foundation. And the Posse Foundation has a concept that quite literally, Debbie Bial, their founder, received a MacArthur Genius Award because it is just a genius idea, which is that one of the ways to improve success for students who are often first-generation is to not expect them to be solo operators but to enroll a group of them and have that group start working together late spring into summer. So that then when this posse of 10 students arrives together, they have that peer-to-peer support that's going to contribute to successful outcomes. So what Posse does is they work with partner universities. We became a Posse partner university, and we'll be the first university in the country to enroll a posse of Virginians. And one of the neat things is that heretofore posse has tended to operate in a single metro area. So if a partner university wanted to enroll a posse from Washington, D.C., that could be done from New York City, that could be done. The posse that will arrive at William & Mary is actually coming from across the Commonwealth of Virginia. That's another thing that was possible because of the broken constraint of needing to get people together in person. Posse had to learn to do that work remotely, and now we're going to capitalize on that. So we will enroll a posse of 11 students. We couldn't get it all the way down to 10 because they were just that strong. That were identified based on a nominating process at the school level. More than four hundred students across Virginia were nominated for it. Posse conducted group interviews. They use their dynamic assessment process, which is a lot like the way we would want to interview somebody for a job. And it also includes things like problems that are approached by groups in evaluating students in that way. They get to 20 finalists are Dean of Admission Tim Wolfe and I and our Associate Dean Tish Canady spent six hours with those 20 finalists, and we picked our posse of 11. It's a really exciting process. A lot of students of color, a lot of first-generation college students in that group. And we are committed to providing full scholarships for them in order to ensure the access and affordability.

Ken White

Fantastic. Yeah, how great to come to school and people have your back, right? I mean

Henry Broaddus

Yeah, in fact, that's the name Posse came from a college dropout who said if I had been there with my posse, we would have made it. And former U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan has said, you don't send a person to the moon, you send a team. So, again, that idea, I think, is a beautiful idea. And it's going to extend our reach. Not just for the 11, by the way, but the fact that William & Mary is now a leader working with this foundation and working within school environments where you have a lot of under-represented students. We hope that's going to raise our institutional profile overall and that will attract even more underrepresented students through that initiative.

Ken White

I think it depends which publication, website, or media outlet you read. It seems one day there's a survey saying people are not interested in sending their children to college, and the next day there's an uptick in people who want to do send their children to college. I'll put you on the spot a little bit. What do you think we'll see in the next couple of years in this strange environment? Where how do you think it all? Where will it all land?

Henry Broaddus

I think we're going to see an acceleration of changes that were already in progress. Certainly, again, you don't have to get to the pandemic to see that disruption was at work already. My friend Bill Conley at Bucknell had had a piece it ran in the Chronicle of Higher Education in the fall in 19 called the Great Enrollment Crash. And it was looking at especially you go through two thousand eight. The economic downturn there, and I think the thinking and the value proposition about education was something that was already very much in flux. And I think what we're going to have to see is a faster evolution. And I think that's in play already. And I think it's also going to mean, Ken, that we need to look at different ways of accessing higher education that may not be the traditional ones we know now. One that we're rolling out. This will be our second year doing this, by the way, is revisiting the notion that fall is the only real point of entry for a first-year student. The reality is that education has been artificially constrained, some say, to an agrarian cycle. There's some evidence that's actually more like mid-19th-century affluent family vacation cycles to have summers off. But we now have another partnership I'm really excited about with a company that enables a gap semester experience abroad. And we're turning to our waitlisted students, who are a really strong set of students. And we're saying, hey, many of you want to be at William & Mary next spring. And it excites you to do something like a Costa Rica field experience through our partner Verto education. We would guarantee your admission as a second-semester freshman at William & Mary if you do that. In the spring, we have more capacity than we do in the fall. We have a lot of students who study abroad. In fact, you know well, we have the highest participation in study abroad among all public universities in the country. We also have students who finish early and so those seniors who finish in the fall. So I mean to be able to optimize by growing the enrollment through a new entry point in spring. I think we're going to see more of that. And then summer would be the other important frontier. And are we going to figure out new ways to use that time?

Ken White

Exciting times.

Henry Broaddus

It's exciting, fraught, and a little stressful would be another way to put it. But yes, I think the great thing from my standpoint, I think what keeps me really energized right now is that every spring that we've endured, and we've had a tremendously successful academic year, as you know well, despite having to operate so differently, I think all of this is revealing new opportunities and new ways to do things. So it's an exciting time to work in this space.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Henry Broaddus, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Companies, organizations, and businesses are seeking professionals to lead in our post COVID world. Professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively, and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive. Check out the William & Mary MBA program to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and suggestions with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest Henry Broaddus, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Tim Murray
Tim MurrayEpisode 152: April 15, 2021
Leading in a Post COVID World

Tim Murray

Episode 152: April 15, 2021

Leading in a Post-COVID World

Since last March, businesses, organizations and professionals worldwide have made continuous changes in order to compete in the environment caused by COVID-19. Many important elements of business and leadership were put on the back burner this past year in some organizations. Training and professional development, performance evaluations, coaching and other programs were among those often pushed aside as organizations dealt with new hurdles and opportunities. As we get closer to what will hopefully be the end of this chapter, it's time to think about the post-pandemic world and what it means for your organization, and for you as a leader. Tim Murray has some thoughts on the subject. After a successful tenure as CEO of Aluminium Bahrain, also known as Alba, Murray's been focused on leadership after the pandemic. He says some aspects will be different in the post-COVID world, and some will remain the same. Whatever happens, he says it's important to think about it now.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What it was like for Tim to reintegrate into U.S. culture after 18 years in the Middle East
  • What prompted Tim to write a book
  • What lesson can be taken from "tomorrow will be different than today"
  • Why personal networking and relationships are important
  • Why a leader should remain positive even through tough times
  • What leaders should look for in an individual when deciding upon promotions
  • Why you should never hire or promote someone you won't be able to terminate later
  • How is coaching going to change in the post-COVID world
  • Why organizations shouldn't cut training programs
Transcript

Tim Murray: Leading in a Post-COVID World TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that can make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Well, since last March, businesses, organizations, and professionals worldwide have made continuous changes in order to compete in the environment caused by COVID-19. Well, many important elements of business and leadership were put on the back burner this past year in some organizations. Training and professional development, performance evaluations, coaching, and other programs were among those often pushed aside as organizations dealt with new hurdles and opportunities. Well, as we get closer to what will hopefully be the end of this chapter, it's time to think about the post-pandemic world and what it means for your organization and for you as a leader. Tim Murray has some thoughts on the subject. After a successful tenure as CEO of Aluminium Bahrain, also known as Alba. Murray has been focused on leadership after the pandemic. He says some aspects will be different in the post-COVID world, and some will remain the same. Whatever happens, he says, it's important to think about it now. Here's our conversation with the former CEO of Aluminium Bahrain, Tim Murray.

Ken White

Well, Tim, thanks for joining us. Nice to see you. Welcome back to William & Mary.

Tim Murray

Yeah, it's nice to be back after all this time, and we're in the virtual world. It was nice. You said would you be okay with coming down to Miller Hall to do it in person? And I said more than happy to come down and get out of my house and engaged.

Ken White

As long as we're socially distanced.

Tim Murray

As long as we're distanced and, yeah, safe. But yeah, it's great to be here. And actually, it felt good to walk in the building. It's been a while since I walked in here.

Ken White

It's nice to have you.

Tim Murray

10 minutes from here.

Ken White

It is so fun to see students in the halls again. Yeah, it's absolutely wonderful. You're in a unique position. You had such an interesting, wonderful position in Bahrain for a number of years. What was it like as you were finishing? What were some of the things say in the last year you were trying to kind of nail down?

Tim Murray

Yes. I mean, as you know, I mean, I was in Bahrain for 12 years, so I finished as the CEO of Aluminium Bahrain, which is the largest smelter in the world outside of China, to produce one point five million tons, roughly three billion dollars a year in annual turnover they're about 12 percent of the GDP of the country. It's a big, big, you know, you've been there.

Ken White

I've been there. It's huge.

Tim Murray

It's like a little city. And, you know, so my contract, I ended up staying a few years longer. My wife and kids came back to the U.S. for high school. And then we had the big line six project. It was a three billion dollar CapEx project that took roughly four years. So I kind of stayed commuted, if you can believe, commuting back and forth from the Middle East for a few years. But, yeah, the last year it was tough. I mean, last year, it was bittersweet. When I left, I mean, is a great place to live: great people, many friends, family. We had great success in many things on safety. The line six, it was hard to leave. And when we finished basically, my contract finished lined up with the finish of the project. So we finished the project in July of 2019 August. I came home. I took a few months off, and then I set up this consulting company, which is we'll talk about this year in the book I wrote. But, you know, it was an interesting transition out because it was planned. And then my deputy CEO at the time he took over, he was, you know, trained. He was under me, you know, coached by me. He's actually one of the chapters in the book. He became the CEO that he's done very well. And I think we've actually had a very good transition, which is something that usually doesn't happen

Ken White

Yeah.

Tim Murray

in the corporate world.

Ken White

Right.

Tim Murray

So so, again, I think there's many lessons in terms of, you know, I ultimately wrote this book, which we'll talk about, but it was tough. It was a tough transition to kind of let it go. And when you live for 12 years outside the country, to reintegrate yourself back in is very different. You know, I was gone for twelve years and to come back and then, you know, you're at the neighborhood parties or doing this, and you start, you know, I don't know these people. And my wife knew people I didn't know.

Ken White

Yeah.

Tim Murray

And so but it was, you know, I'm glad I came back. I am back for a little, you know, eighteen months now and, you know, reintegrated

Ken White

Right.

Tim Murray

and reenergized to get out of the house and do stuff once the world opens up. But it was a great, great experience. I have no regrets about it.

Ken White

And so one of the things you did was you wrote a book, and you call it Words of Wisdom. And these are things that you've shared when you were at in Bahrain at Alba. But also, you're looking at it more as these are some lessons for the post COVID world.

Tim Murray

That's correct. So so the book I'm a big reader, as you know,

Ken White

Right.

Tim Murray

I've given you many books like people books, and many people ask me, when are you going to write your own book? And so with when I came back, actually it was on my list to do. The COVID actually greatly accelerated that because obviously, we were trapped in the house with not a whole lot to do. So I said, okay, well, I can take this one, let's work on this. So it took me probably about six, seven months. I started it in February of twenty twenty. Obviously, the COVID accelerated all that. I self-published it. I published it through a company called iUniverse. So I wrote the book. I had to get an editor. I worked with a graphic designer on the cover, but I'd say seven months it was actually in one respect. It was easier than I thought. Writing it was harder than I thought. But yeah, I wanted to share these words of wisdom. These Wows, as I call them, as you recall in Bahrain, my P.R. department created these little bookmarks, and they would take some of my sayings like you never get a second chance for first impression. The best communication is direct communication. Perception is reality. So what I did is I took I have twelve short stories. I have a wow. Then I have a story that's actually linked to it. And then the end of each chapter, there's three or four takeaways. So it's very practical advice. And I believe if you look at the stories and kind of the messages, they really do spin what's going on in one, surviving through COVID and then emerging from COVID. I talk a lot about communication. I talk a lot about preparation. I talk about what makes you successful at one level is not what makes you successful at the next. I have one that's called tomorrow be different than today. So we think about COVID. Let's go back a year ago when it started; nobody thought it could happen. Okay, now I think we have the reverse. We are going to emerge. And I think I actually I think the world is going to boom to much more of a degree than we're talking about now because we're in the negative zone on everything. So so, yeah, I think there's many lessons in there about coaching, training, feedback, all these things I think are even more critical now as we kind of you know, you think about it for a year, we haven't done a lot of things we would do. Think of performance review, think of giving feedback, think of training, you know, all that's been okay, maybe we're doing Zoom to a degree, but it's not the same. So so I think there's a lot of lessons in the post COVID world that can be applied.

Ken White

Let's talk about some of them. One of your chapters, Chapter five tomorrow, will be different than today. You just mentioned that. What do you what's the point of that? What are you trying to what lesson are you trying to teach us?

Tim Murray

Well, one, the lesson is how quickly things can change in the world and be flipped upside down. So, again, when you look at COVID last year, I remember I was traveling. It was the last time I was on a plane in February of 2020, and we had the China virus. And there was one case in the U.S., and nobody was worried about it, and the stock market was booming. And then okay, in two months after that, we shut the world down, and all that happened. So, you know, things can change on a dime to a very drastic degree. I recently gave a presentation actually to a university about leading through adversity. And I actually gave a slide about the last pandemic we had, which was in 1918. So it was the Spanish flu. And if we look back at that, 50 million people died. This was 1918. World War One had just ended. So the world was in bad, bad, bad shape. And so you think about that, and then you think, what happened after that? Then we had the roaring 20s. We had ten years of pretty good boom. Also, we had a bang at the end with the stock market. But so how things can shift. And I think where we are today; we have to get out of this negative mindset. And all that's happened and whatever has happened has happened. We got to focus on the reopening, be positive. The vaccines are here. They are going to roll out faster. I think I think we will get back to normal quicker than people are talking about today. You know, and I think I think everybody's ready. Everybody's got COVID fatigue, Zoom fatigue. We were talking about it before we started the show. We want to get out. I mean, I was happy to come down to Miller Hall and do this face to face versus a Zoom. So I think, you know, we as people, we okay, we've proven a lot. We can do a lot with this, you know, virtual Zoom reality, many good things. But we can't take away that personal element of communication and training and meeting people and relationships and networking. So so, again, you know, tomorrow will be different than today. So I'm optimistic. I think within two, three months we're going to see a very different world. I think we're going to see people on planes again, going traveling again, doing things again. And I think, you know, we will have a boom in terms of good things. And I think we have to be positive and embrace and get ready. Get ready to run.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Tim Murray, former CEO of Alba and author of Words of Wisdom, in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary's School of Business. The post COVID world will require new skills and new approaches. Those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different MBA formats, including the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive, all taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty. The William & Mary MBA will prepare you to succeed and lead in our new world. Check out the MBA programs at William & Mary. Now back to our conversation with Tim Murray.

Ken White

What I liked in the book is, is, yes, positive mindset, but you were right up front and said there were some issues you ran into like we all do in our careers that really knocked you out. I mean, you know, that messes you up mentally. Maybe you can't sleep. How do you how did you deal with those kinds of issues where? Wow. I can't even think straight.

Tim Murray

Yeah, I mean, I would my biggest when you say that; what pops to my mind is the safety issues. So Alba, when I took over as CEO, we were having bad safety performance. We were having fatalities in the plant. We had it. Was it five fatalities in less than three years? So I remember two months before I became CEO, we had another fatality. And this was actually one of the main reasons the former CEO was removed, and I was put in. And so you think about, you know, you go to bed at night, you put your phone down in your saying a prayer that you don't get a call in the middle of the night. I mean, it's a tough, tough thing. So but how do you be positive there? I mean, here you are, the leader. You know, things aren't going well. You have a fatality. You're trying to drive a message. You, as the leader, you have to be positive. And if you look at COVID, it's the same thing. As tough as it is and is probably worn out as you all are, you have to be positive. You're the leader. If you're positive, your people will be positive. And even when you're dealing with those tough issues or those negative issues, and you're stressed, you as the leader have to absorb it. You have to, I say, almost be like a shock absorber. You got to take that negative energy and spin it in a positive way. You got to get people thinking positive. And again, as we emerge from the COVID, I think that's one of the things we got to really focus on and not complain about or go look back. And I say, you know, in the book I talk about a story, don't cry over the spilled milk. What's done is done. And so you got to look forward and as tough as it is. You know, the leaders today, we've all had a tough time. You got to move forward and be positive for your people as hard as that is.

Ken White

One of your chapters is what makes you successful at one level is not necessarily what makes you successful at the next. How does that tie into where we're headed?

Tim Murray

So this one this is one I learned early in my career. And in the book, I talk more about how you go from the role of a doer. So you're an individual contributor to a manager role. And we were talking about this earlier. When you get promoted, okay, normally we promote somebody for doing a good job in their existing job. We say he's a great engineer, he's a great accountant, he's a great technical person. And then we make him a manager or she a manager. And now you're a manager. And it's a totally different skill set. And, you know, engineers, I like to pick on engineers, but when you take an engineer, usually a good engineer is somebody who is very detailed, micromanages, follows up. Okay, as a manager, maybe that's not the best thing. So so that you have to think differently. So, you know, you as leaders, when you're promoting, people really look at the position and say, this is what I want for the position, not necessarily the person that's there. And I'm a big believer from promoting from within, don't get me wrong, but this is a big one. So if we look in the COVID situation, okay, what made us successful prior to COVID is not what's going to make us successful post COVID. Talk about Zoom, okay, as much as we're all probably sick about talking about Zoom. I think we can use Zoom in a lot of different ways. We talk about business travel and conferencing, and networking. We've proven a lot of what we did was probably wasted time and money. So and I think as we emerge from the COVID, you know, there was winners and losers during the COVID. There'll be winners and losers post COVID. So again, what made us successful and got us through all the COVID things is not necessarily what's going to make us successful after. So just think differently don't get stuck in that kind of fixed mindset of, you know, this is how I've always done it. I'm going to always be successful. And we look today in terms of technology and all the stuff that Google and Amazon and Zoom face, but all these things that have emerged as a result of the COVID. Use them, leverage them. But I think it'll be different than what you did previously.

Ken White

When I saw the name of this chapter, I immediately just jumped off the page. Never hire or promote someone you're not willing to terminate later.

Tim Murray

Yeah, this is probably the harshest story in the book. It's a lesson I learned in my actually my first job. I was working for a small family-owned business. And the gentleman who ran it, he was the owner slash president, and his CFO was his sister-in-law. And it was very small family business. So so you can imagine the dynamics there. The gentleman who was the owner president, he was a very dynamic sales guy. Talker wants to close deals, wants to keep the customer happy. Of course, the CFO was very tough on the credit and payment terms, and so they were constantly clashing. So, you know, I finished my job. I was there two years. He was gracious enough to invite me into his office. Give me a kind of an exit interview. Hey, we appreciate what you did. And he said to me right at the end, he said, listen, he said, you know, when you become a boss, you know, never put somebody in there that you can't terminate. And he said, look at this mess I have with my CFO. It's my sister-in-law. I can't get rid of her family dynamics. I should I never put her in there. And so when you're hiring or promoting somebody, really think about that. You know, if you have to terminate them later, are you going be able to do it? Because in the business world and wherever we are, you know, it's friends, it's family there with you for many years. And in the book, I talk about a gentleman who was a former executive of mine. He was promoted up the ranks with me. He was my right-hand man that we started having some performance issues, some ego issues, and ultimately, you know, he left on an early retirement package, but it was one where it was not an easy thing to do. And he was close to me. And, you know, but business is business. And when people aren't performing, you have to deal with it, because if you don't deal with it, my view, it's like a cancer. You know, people see that you don't deal with a performance issue or a poor performer. They'll say, oh well, look, he gets a he's coming in late every day, or she did this, and they get away with this. It's a very hard thing. So you have to step up and make those decisions. But so when you're back to the, wow, you know, when you are going to promote somebody or hire somebody, and it's a friend or a relative or stuff like that. All right. Put yourself in the shoes that say, listen, if I have to get rid of them later, am I going to do it? Because if you're not, then don't put them in there because and it does happen, and it's a particularly family-owned businesses. It's a very, very, very common thing.

Ken White

Yeah, great. Great advice. You always liked coaching. That's an important piece of your leadership. And you talk, and you talk about coaching in the book. How do you see coaching now in the middle of COVID or hopefully toward the end of it, right?

Tim Murray

Yeah.

Ken White

And then in the post-COVID world.

Tim Murray

Yeah. So I'm a big believer in coaching. So I grew up a sports guy. I played baseball all the way through university. I was always playing sports, and there was always a coach. And I say coaching is a gift that must be returned. So I think anybody who coaches you. One, you should thank them because they're not getting paid extra to do it. Usually, it's a lot more work. A lot of people don't want to do it. So if you're fortunate enough to have a coach, a mentor, it's a big, big thing in your career. So, so, yeah, I'm a big believer. So at Alba, I did a lot of coaching. The story I have in the book actually is about the current CEO of Alba. His name is Ali Al Baqali. So he was under me, and he was my deputy CEO, and as part of me leaving, there was a planned transition. Ali was a lifelong Alba guy, very smart guy, very clever guy. And so as we planned out the path of me finishing the project, leaving. You know, he was identified as my successor. He was deputy CEO for the last two years. And then he moved into that role. But we spent a lot of time coaching him because he was at that time, he was before the deputy, he was CFO. And so he transitioned into a few different roles there. Back to what makes you successful at one level is not what makes you successful at the next. You know, we had to groom him. We had to go over all these things and train these things. And so when you go from CFO to deputy CEO to CEO, they're all different roles. So I think so it's very important. But it was a proper transition. Ali is doing a great job today. Alba's running well. The safety is running well. The production is running well. And it's a nice story because today, in most corporations, you don't see plan transitions. Usually, it's bang the CEO's gone the next day he was terminated by the board. Stock price goes down twenty percent.

Ken White

Right.

Tim Murray

Usually, it's a it's an ugly story. But but but to spin it on the COVID, you know, if we look over the time of the COVID, we've probably had a big lack of coaching or feedback. I mean, think of the basic things of a performance review or a quarterly review, and okay, maybe we're doing them via Zoom to some degree, but it's not the same.

Ken White

Right.

Tim Murray

And you think about training sessions. Are we still doing training sessions? Okay, maybe to some level, but you know, you would think about pre COVID you're constantly training session. You're going here, you're flying here, you're doing this. So I think we've got a big, you know, pent-up demand probably for coaching, feedback, training. So so as you emerge as a leader, really look at that. Because training, my experience with training is really something that motivates people and coaching. If you read all the big surveys, there was a survey in The Wall Street Journal a few months ago, and it talked about what's the most important thing to people, you know, and it's not pay, it's not benefits, it's not bonuses. It's coaching and development. You know you look at pay, bonuses wherever you go. That's going to be generally within the market.

Ken White

Right.

Tim Murray

It's not going to be drastically different. But why people leave? They don't feel they're appreciated. They're not feeling that they're developed. They don't have opportunities to move up within the company. So they leave. And again, today, I think you're going to see that. I mean, this is you want to keep your good people because the good people can always go. I mean, and so I think spending that time on coaching, development, and training and it's a tough one because training it's an easy thing to cut. And my view is, once you cut it, then the next year when we roll up the budget and the bean counters say, well, we cut it last year, why do we need to put it back in this year and then it goes away forever? So my advice is, don't cut training. It's the worst thing. It sends a bad message to your people. They say, oh, look, they're cutting training. They don't care about us. And again, once you cut it, it's very hard to put it back in. So so as we emerge from the COVID pandemic and people are able to communicate and travel and do those things. Do stuff on the training, do some workshops, do some off-sites. I think people are dying for this. And this is a good way to motivate your team, you know, build that momentum back forward and get people moving in the right direction because everybody is COVID fatigued. So so to do training and development and workshops and feedback and coaching, I think people are really wanting it. I think so. I think it's a big, big thing that can differentiate you.

Ken White

And learn all these lessons that we've been taught throughout this and apply them as we move forward, and maybe good things will happen.

Tim Murray

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Ken White

That's our conversation with the former CEO of Alba, Tim Murray, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Companies, organizations, and businesses are seeking professionals who can lead in the post COVID world. Professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively, and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive. Check out the William & Mary MBA programs to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest Tim Murray and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Jim Roddy
Jim RoddyEpisode 151: April 1, 2021
The Walk-On Method

Jim Roddy

Episode 151: April 1, 2021

The Walk-On Method

If you're familiar with college athletics, then you're familiar with the term "walk-on." Walk-ons are college athletes who, unlike many of their teammates, were not recruited by the coaching staff. They had to try out to make the team. And, unlike many of their teammates, walk-ons do not receive scholarships to be a part of the team. Yet virtually all college sports teams at all levels have walk-ons on their rosters. Most coaches will agree that walk-ons are a special breed. They work extremely hard, they're focused, they tend to persevere. Resilience is a part of their DNA, and the spotlight doesn't matter much to them. As a result, they not only make the team, but in many cases they make the team better. Our guest today says the pattern of behavior adopted by walk-ons in college athletics can also be adopted by professionals. And he has several examples from a variety of sectors to back up his claim. Jim Roddy is a former college basketball walk-on and author of "The Walk-On Method." He joins us today to discuss his blueprint for professional success.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What is the definition of a "walk-on"
  • What is the typical mindset of a walk-on
  • How Jim found his walk-on interviewees
  • How does the walk-on mentality translate to the business world
  • What are the commonalities between sports and business
  • How do individual sports athletes think about business differently in relation to team sports athletes
  • What does it mean to "take a big shot"
  • The importance of making a passion statement
  • What it means to "run uphill"
  • Why one should Maximize Unique Strengths
Transcript

Jim Roddy: The Walk-On Method TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

 

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. If you're familiar with college athletics, then you're familiar with the term walk on. Walk-ons are college athletes who, unlike many of their teammates, were not recruited by the coaching staff. They had to try out to make the team. And unlike many of their teammates, walk-ons do not receive scholarships to be a part of the team. Yet virtually all college sports teams at all levels have walk-ons on their rosters. Most coaches will agree that walk-ons are a special breed. They work extremely hard. They're focused. They tend to persevere. Resilience is a part of their DNA, and the spotlight doesn't matter much to them. As a result, they not only make the team but, in many cases, they make the team better. Our guest today says the pattern of behavior adopted by walk-ons in college athletics can also be adopted by professionals. And he has several examples from a variety of sectors to back up his claim. Jim Roddy is a former college basketball Walk-On and author of The Walk On Method. He joins us today to discuss his blueprint for professional success. Here's our conversation with Jim Roddy.

Ken White

Well, Jim, it's nice to see you. Thanks for taking time to join us on the podcast.

Jim Roddy

Thanks for having me, Ken. Great to cross paths with you again.

Ken White

You know, in the introduction, when I was telling our listeners what a walk-on is, and certainly, some of them know that. But how do you define walk-on when you're talking to someone? Maybe, isn't too very well versed in college athletics. What's a walk-on?

Jim Roddy

Sure. A walk-on is someone who endeavors to be part of a college sports team. But that college sports team, most everybody else, is a scholarship athlete. And so it's a person who says, I would like to do exactly what they're doing, but for no scholarship money and for far less playing time. So there's certainly an element of servant leadership and sacrifice right off the bat, just the decision to try to be a walk-on.

Ken White

What's the mindset of a walk-on? I'm assuming it's quite different from the teammate who was invited and has a scholarship.

Jim Roddy

Good question. For a lot of folks, it kind of runs the gamut. And that's part of what we had in our book. There are some folks who felt that they were overlooked and said, I think I can work my way into a scholarship. And many of them did. And not just a scholarship, but actually ended up as professional athletes. They kind of thought that they were overlooked. And then there were other folks who and that this is kind of the spot that I was in was, boy, what an amazing experience this would be. If there's anything that I can do to be part of this team, I would give anything in order to just to be along for the ride. But I think what everybody saw in the walk-ons that I talk with. At some point, it got to servant leadership that I was here for something bigger than myself, bigger than just my individual statistics. And so that was something that as I talk with these walk-ons, you know, I'd say after about ten interviews, I realized that servant leadership was really core to this whole walk-on process. Then I would start bringing it up to folks. They would say, you know what, I never thought of it that way, but it's so true. So that was one thing that was really revealing. And I think that is a common mindset among all walk-ons.

Ken White

And so, in your book, you interview people who were walk-ons, who went on to successful careers. How did you even begin to find people?

Jim Roddy

Good question. Thank goodness for Google, and thank goodness for John Saracino, who is from Erie, Pennsylvania. He's also from Erie, and he wrote for USA Today for many years. And he just gave me a whole bunch of guidelines in terms of what search terms in order to use. So I ended up interviewing 30 people for the book, but I must have gone through more than one hundred people that I was researching, reaching out to trying to find contact information. But I can say of all the folks who I ended up connecting with. Nobody had a bad story. I always thought I'd run into somebody who's going to be like, oh, this is pretty boring or lame or the same old, same old. But boy, at some point during every interview, I was like, I can't believe the great story or multiples of stories that were behind it. So it was a lot of digging, sifting through dirt in order to get a lot of great gold nuggets.

Ken White

You realize there's some commonalities, and there's some lessons that a walk-on takes through life. When you reached out to these professionals, did they realize that, or did you have to plant that seed before they realized it?

Jim Roddy

For many of them, I did have to plant the seed because so like the gist of the book says, ordinary people, even underdogs and maybe especially underdogs, but ordinary people will accomplish extraordinary feats when their energy is properly channeled. So the way that the walk on's were behaving in their professional life today was more second nature for them because they were forced to behave that way just to survive as a walk-on. So for many of them, it wasn't an intentional act that they were going through and saying, oh, I have to have this walk-on mentality. It was like them looking around and saying, how come other people don't behave this way? I don't get it. How come other people aren't driven like I am? How come other people aren't showing up early? How come other people aren't trying to really push themselves and educate themselves and drive to get better and drive to help other people? So for many of them, it was they thought it was in their blood, and maybe it is, but it was a lot that experience, at the very least, enhanced their skills in their mindset.

Ken White

I was walking into work today with a colleague, and I mentioned that you and I were going to talk, and she's not a big sports fan. But she said, you know, I guess there are some commonalities between sports and business. Yeah, they sure are. But when you hear that, what do you think some of the obvious commonalities are? What are the lessons that that that kids and adults take away from being athletes, whether they're a wrestler and or a track and field athlete on their own, or baseball, football, soccer, lacrosse, a team sport? What are the lessons?

Jim Roddy

Well, first, I'll just take a step back. When I was planning on writing this book, I knew that sports fans would find it entertaining because sports people love reading about sports. But I test-marketed a handful of chapters on folks who couldn't care less about sports. But they're in the business world, and their reaction was, this is great, can I have some more? And that's what I really knew, that I had something because they were able to see the connections that were able to be made. So I think one is, you know, the correlation is team goals over personal goals. If you're playing on a sports team and you're putting your personal goals ahead of the team goals, you're not a good teammate. Your team's not going to be very good or be very successful, and no matter how talented you are, right, there's going to be all sorts of disharmony in that realm. And then there's also another thing that I see is from a correlation is by going through a sports team and this will sound terrible, but you have to tolerate people, right? You have people who were just thrust onto the team. You do not get to choose them. And you have a choice of quitting that team or tolerating that person. A lot of times with the coaches as well, like there's a coaching turnover. And so you're staying with the school, but the coach comes in. You have to learn how do I tolerate that person? Might be a cynical way of looking at it, but also, how can I adjust in order to make sure that things work with that person? And I was on a team with a guy from Sudan, from Croatia, a guy who graduated in three years, guys who struggled to go to class. You know, people from inner-city Detroit, people from Tippecanoe, Ohio. Right. And so you had all these different worlds that are kind of coming together, and you got to learn to deal with that or not. And the same in the workforce, the better that you can adapt to the culture and the better that you can fill in gaps for people and be a great teammate for them, no matter what their position, their perspective or background, that's going to be successful in business as well.

Ken White

Any differences in that athlete who plays a team sport versus an individual sport in terms of the outlook at work and the lessons learned?

Jim Roddy

I would say yes. So there are things that you might not have to go through so much as a tennis player or as a track and field athlete than you would a basketball player who's, you know, forced to sit on the bench or forced to practice or determining playing time. So, yeah, I'd say the team aspect of it has, I'd say a little higher degree of difficulty. Not that it's easy for the other people in the individual sport, but there's certainly another dimension there from a team aspect that isn't from an individual aspect. Though the thing for the individual aspect is like, quite frankly, I was a walk-on for four years. People tolerated the fact that I wasn't very good. Right. But if I was in an individual sport, they'd be like, oh, this guy's not going to play like I don't want him on the team because he's not going to contribute at all whatsoever. Like, if you're a wrestler, you're getting pinned every match. That's not going to go very far. So there is definitely a give and take for both those opportunities.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Jim Roddy in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The Post COVID World will require new skills and new approaches. Those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different MBA formats, including the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive, all taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty. The William & Mary MBA will prepare you to succeed and lead in our new world. Check out the MBA programs at William & Mary. Now back to our conversation with Jim Roddy, author of The Walk on Method.

Ken White

In a previous episode, we had William & Mary graduate, who is a successful entrepreneur, and he was a tennis player at William & Mary, you know, what he was saying is those individual sports, it's all, you. No excuses, right? You learn you either step up and perform, or you fail, and you can't point fingers. So I think there's some great lessons, of course, in the team sports and the individual sports. So the walk-on method, you have steps as you as you go through. Let's go through those for our listeners. Your first step is take a big shot. Tell us about that.

Jim Roddy

Yes, so the subtitle for Take a Big Shot is that anybody can make a layup. And so one thing that we saw in common with these walk-ons in both their athletic career and their professional career is that they tried something that was really hard. They didn't look and say, boy, that would be great to do, but I'm only going to go halfway because that's probably more achievable, right. To say I'm going to walk on to the University of Florida football team, and I'm going to be a meaningful player is crazy if no one's offering you a scholarship whatsoever. But that was Chris Doering, and then later in his life for him to say, I'm going to make it as a mortgage broker. Right as the recession hit in 2008. That's crazy as well. But he's very successful with what he's done because he had that mindset about taking a big shot.

Ken White

Boy, and that takes guts, doesn't it, to do that to walk on to a powerful program like that.

Jim Roddy

There's a fine line between bravery and insanity. So the walk-ons tend to dance on that line.

Ken White

Your step to make a passion statement?

Jim Roddy

Yes, p passion, not f fashion. So it talks about preparing with passion, practicing with passion, and then playing with passion. So too many people wish that their dream is going to come true or they have a goal set in business, and they hope that it's going to come true. And they say, boy, when that moment comes. I'm really going to give it my all. But you can't wish. You can't wait. `We talk about you have to walk on to that dream. So what we saw very common is the folks who are successful. It wasn't just that they were gamers, but they did all sorts of preparation, and they practice, practice, practice, and improve their skills. They didn't say; I'm going to go with what I got. They really worked on themselves to improve themselves. They realized they had weaknesses in areas to improve and focus on those instead of making excuses.

Ken White

In passion also, does that mean passion for the sport and passion for the business that you're in as well?

Jim Roddy

Correct, yes. You have to find something that you say; I really want to do this, not ugh I got to get out of bed and painful. And, you know, you roll your eyes when this thing comes around, you have to make sure you're aligning yourself with something that really makes you go, really charges your engine, and really make sure that you have the self-initiative behind it.

Ken White

Step three, run uphill.

Jim Roddy

Yeah. So run uphill. We say that it takes longer to run uphill, but it makes you stronger. So we're taught to avoid obstacles and seek the path of least resistance. Right. For these walk-ons have been way easier just to play intramurals and not to actually try out for Division one team. And so what we're told is when there's an obstacle, you should shrink; you should close your eyes. You should get apprehensive right when things get difficult. But walk-ons don't avoid those obstacles. They actually lean into the difficulties of the situation, and they embrace the obstacles because they know on the other end of the experience, they'll be battle-tested. Right, going through that fire. So when you encounter a career challenge or business challenge, you see everyone around you like wishing the moment will pass. This is way too difficult. Show courage, jump headlong into the problem, convert it into an opportunity or a potential victory for yourself. Don't shy away from those obstacles. Really embrace them.

Ken White

Are people born with that ability, or do you learn that ability to take on tough challenges?

Jim Roddy

I'd say some people are naturally born with it, just like I would never jump out of an airplane. And I work with somebody who loved high altitude extreme, you know, jumping out of airplanes. Like, I could not do that. But there are things that can be taught. And that's what a lot of these walk-ons had as well, is it wasn't just natural for them that all of them are just these wired wound up. I'm going to go get them. Some of them needed to kind of kick themselves in the butt or throw themselves into a situation where they were under a lot of stress and had a lot of difficult coaching. And they practiced and learned that we had one person who the only reason who went to Cal State, Chico, is because it was a good party school. And the only reason he ran track is because he was bored. Right. And but the coach really pushed him. And now he's a very successful doctor and actually an instructor at a college in Tennessee. So these are not just born traits. These can all be developed.

Ken White

Step four, no fuss all MUS.

Jim Roddy

Yes, so no fuss means maintain emotional control and all MUS capital m capital u capital s. Maximize unique strengths. So it's very important that especially not just in the sports world, the business world, you control your emotion, especially the negative ones as you advance through your career. Right. If you get passed over for promotion that you thought you deserved, just shake your head for a moment in private and then resolve, I'm going to work harder. I'm going to get better and then maximize your unique strengths. A lot of these walk-ons in the book, almost all of them, they were shorter, skinnier, slower than the more gifted scholarship athletes. But they figured out what is my special ability or attitude that I could bring to the team in order to do that. A great example of that is Brandon Landry. He's actually the founder of the Walk On's restaurant, the sports bistro that's growing down in the southeast. And so he got cut from his high school team, and he said, I got to get better. He got cut from the LSU team. He said I got to get better. And sure enough, they had some injuries. They called him back, and he ended up working, and being a long-term walk-on on that team took so many experiences from it. Again, he spun off an entire business model that's called Walk On's, bistro, and restaurant.

Ken White

That that that attitude that I'm not going to lose attitude, it's so incredible to see, and especially college athletics, we see it over and over again. I just read about the point guard for UMBC. He's five feet two inches tall, and he plays like he's six feet two inches tall. You know what? That's all that's that step, isn't it? That's just going after it.

Jim Roddy

And it is a choice. You know, a lot of our walk-ons, Megan Lightfoot, she walked into UCLA rowing office, said, I'd like to try out, and they're like you can try out, but you're probably going to quit. This isn't for you. So she could have walked out with an excuse to say, okay, I guess this isn't for me. I guess it's fate. And she walked out and said, I will show you. We have that choice every day where we get rejected, or we have an obstacle. We have a choice to embrace it, learn from it, get better, maximize our unique strengths, or we have a choice to crawl under our desks and cry.

Ken White

Step five, make them throw you out of the gym.

Jim Roddy

Yeah, so one person misinterpreted this as your goal is to make them throw you out of the gym. I'm like, no, the emphasis is on them. Make them throw you out of the gym. And we say never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever quit. So what we saw with a lot of our walk-ons, both again from an athlete standpoint and a business standpoint, is they said, I'm going to take that big shot, and I'm going to keep trying until they throw me out. And once they throw me out, I'm still going to go back in. A lot of folks that we've seen from an athletic standpoint, a business standpoint, the reason they never achieve something great is because they quit before they even started. Right. They just assumed it wasn't for them. They just assumed a CEO job wasn't for them. They just assumed a growing company, a highly profitable company, wasn't for them. They just assumed entrepreneurship wasn't for them. But those who said, I'm going to keep trying, I'm going to try every angle until I get my goal. Those are the folks who actually end up succeeding. So, again, it's make them throw you out. We have a lot of examples of even when they throw you out. They keep going back and back and back until they get what they came for.

Ken White

And you say all five steps are within your power. Can you explain that?

Jim Roddy

Yeah, so none of these require some advanced degree, right. To take a big shot. It doesn't require some specialized skill. Right. And to prepare with passion. Right. It's the time that you put into it. You can develop preparation skills and things like that. But you don't need, again, those advanced degrees to control emotions or maximize unique strengths. So if you want to increase your knowledge, your skills, and your competence, and if you want to change the trajectory of your business or your career, you can start thinking and acting like a walk-on. There's nobody who stopping you from doing these things. And again, these are folks we profile. Ordinary people, right. Very few accolades among them. Everybody around them was bigger, faster, stronger, smarter oftentimes. But they figured out how am I going to get it done? And they just kept coming back for more and more until they got what they wanted.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Jim Roddy, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Companies, organizations, and businesses are seeking professionals to lead in the post-COVID world. Professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively, and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. Check out the William & Mary MBA program to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Jim Roddy, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Rajiv Kohli
Rajiv KohliEpisode 150: March 15, 2021
Light at the End of the COVID Tunnel

Rajiv Kohli

Episode 150: March 15, 2021

Light at the End of the COVID Tunnel

After a year of social distancing, virtual meetings and homeschooling, people are ready to shed their masks and get back to life as we knew it before we were introduced to COVID-19. As the weather improves and we see family, friends, and colleagues receiving vaccinations, people are finally seeing light at the end of the tunnel. As we record this episode of the podcast, the CDC reports 11% of American adults have received both coronavirus vaccine doses. And two million doses a day are being administered. Rajiv Kohli is the John N. Dalton Professor of Business at William & Mary. He's a leading scholar in health information technology and a healthcare expert. For over 15 years, he's worked and consulted with several top healthcare organizations. Kohli says we're getting there, faster than many experts originally predicted. And as events continue to move in a positive direction, there are many things to think about before COVID-19 is in our rearview mirror.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn | Spotify

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What does life getting back to normal really mean
  • Is there a timeframe for life getting back to normal
  • Why Thanksgiving is an important benchmark
  • Why people should still be diligent in their mask wearing and social distancing
  • Why one should still wear a mask even after getting vaccinated
  • What are the dangers of students traveling for spring break
  • Are there any differences between the three vaccines
  • How does the coronavirus vaccine work
  • Why do people not feel well after getting their second vaccine shot
Transcript

Rajiv Kohli: Light at the End of the COVID Tunnel TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that can make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Well, after a year of social distancing, virtual meetings, and homeschooling, people are ready to shed their masks and get back to life as we knew it before we were introduced to COVID-19. As the weather improves and we see family, friends, and colleagues receiving vaccinations, people are finally seeing light at the end of the tunnel. As we record this episode of the podcast, the CDC reports 11 percent of American adults have received both coronavirus vaccine doses, and two million doses a day are being administered. Rajiv Kohli is the John and Dalton Professor of Business at William & Mary. He's a leading scholar in health information technology and a health care expert. For over 15 years, he's worked and consulted with several top health care organizations. Kohli says we're getting there faster than many experts originally predicted. And as events continue to move in a positive direction, there are many things to think about before COVID-19 is in our rearview mirror. Here's our conversation with Dr. Rajiv Kohli.

Ken White

Rajiv, it's great to see you. Thanks for sharing your time and expertise with us today on the podcast.

Rajiv Kohli

Thank you, Ken. It's a pleasure to be here.

Ken White

So you know, everywhere I seem to go, almost everyone I seem to talk with has the same sort of question on their mind. And that is, when do you think life will get back to quote-unquote normal? What do you think? Where where are we heading at this point?

Rajiv Kohli

Yeah, so that's a tricky question because normal means different things to different people. So I think we will go through stages of normality or normalcy. We think that a July 4th around that time frame, we'll begin to step outside. If we are fully vaccinated, we can hang out with our family members. And CDC has just issued some guidelines on that, that you can go mingle with people in small groups if you are fully vaccinated without risk of infecting others. And then I think come Thanksgiving, things will start to crawl to normal, and there will be a test period between Thanksgiving and Christmas where we will see how we fared after Thanksgiving, how things went, did the spread increase, and then that will determine that Christmas and New Year's. So to answer your question, barring any unforeseen circumstances, I think we might have a normal as close to normal Christmas as we can expect. Some of that is also dependent on how the virus mutates and also dependent on how we behave as individuals.

Ken White

Oh, and that's a big piece of it, isn't it? We're already seeing people who have been vaccinated who may not want to wear masks or people whose families have been vaccinated and don't want to wear masks. So, so much of this is behavior of human beings, isn't it?

Rajiv Kohli

It is. And it's very understandable that there is some fatigue setting in where we are tired, and we don't know what to do. And, you know, we've spent a good part of this year, almost a year now spent indoors. And so it's natural for us, for us to feel that way. That we don't want to wear masks. But I think we are in the homestretch. It's not surprising that if you look at some other context, a lot of the traffic accidents, more than 50 percent of the traffic accidents happen within five miles of a person's home, and they usually hit parked cars. And the reason is that we get complacent because we are almost there. But what I would say to anybody listening is this is not the time for us to be complacent. We are almost there. We stuck it out for a year. Let's wait another few months and will be home.

Ken White

But we really crave contact with one another, don't we, at this point.

Rajiv Kohli

We do, and that's part of why we are so frustrated with wearing masks and social distancing. We do crave human contact and seeing our loved ones as I know they feel the same about meeting us. So that's why it's very important for us to exercise restraint at this time. And just to wait a little longer. I like the phrase that was being used around last Christmas when they said, let's be restrained this Christmas so we can have the next Christmas and the following one. So, yes, it is very frustrating for people who been so patient for so long.

Ken White

But as you mentioned, maybe Christmas might be a good target. Would that mean at that time we would still wear masks? Like when would the mask possibly disappear?

Rajiv Kohli

Yeah, so that also is is somewhat unclear at this time and dependent on where we are going, how many people are we mingling with, and who are we mingling with. So I would say if you are meeting people who are at higher risk, either because of age or other underlying conditions, we may still want to wear masks. The other aspect of wearing masks, Ken, is that it is also a signaling mechanism where even when you are vaccinated, you may still want to wear a mask because by wearing a mask, you're saying this is what is acceptable behavior, this is what the norm is. And that I am looking out for you because you don't know who will in your surroundings is not vaccinated. So even though we may be vaccinated, we still want to wear masks because we are telling others that this is the norm that we are following right now.

Ken White

Yeah, I think we've grown a little bit over this past year, right? We are looking at others a little more, maybe than we did Pre-COVID as a society.

Rajiv Kohli

Yes, we are. And, you know, when we talk about herd immunity, for example, that is all dependent on how others are taking care of themselves and, in doing so, how they are keeping you safe. So in that regard, we are our brother's keeper. We are our sister's keepers,

Ken White

Yeah.

Rajiv Kohli

because what we do matters to not just us but to others around us.

Ken White

We're starting to see some stories in the media about people traveling already. It's spring break time. Although most colleges and universities did away with their spring break and took the days and made them nonsecutive on nonconsecutive days off. But still, we're hearing reports about students heading south to Florida and folks who've been vaccinated traveling. What's the travel situation right now? What would you advise people to do if they want to travel at this point?

Rajiv Kohli

So let me first address the spring break issue. And I've seen those pictures on T.V., people having a good time on beaches and so on. I worry about the young people because while they are less susceptible, they also think they're invincible. So while they may not see the same impact of COVID if they were to get infected as others would. They could be carriers, unwitting carriers, and bring them home. And if they're traveling from different parts of the country, they might bring it back to their communities, and we might see another spread. So in terms of travel, that is also this question about whether I should travel by air or by road. The air travel itself, the flying portion of the travel itself, is not that risky. In fact, it's relatively safe. It's what people do and where they mingle and who they come in contact with after the travel after they take their flight, and then they take the flight back. That is causing some concern. So the travel part is not that big a problem right now. So I would say that if you're traveling by road and you are going to a place where you are going to be by yourself with your family, perhaps on the beach and you rent a house, it's fairly safe. It's fairly safe. In fact, we did see during last fall, or even last summer, increased traffic going to beach areas where people were renting homes and not necessarily hotels. So to answer your question, travel right now within certain boundaries and constraints is relatively safe, or we can make it safe. It's just that when we travel, what we do post-travel is, is what causes some people concern.

Ken White

So three vaccines out there now. Are they different? Are they similar? Is there one that seems to be the favorite? What's up with all three? How do you approach those?

Rajiv Kohli

Yeah, so I'm also hearing about the effectiveness of different vaccines as far as the vaccines are concerned. They all do the job. They all do the job. And there are differences in the efficacy rates, but they are not really comparable because the trials were done at different times. And these numbers, this is 90 percent effective, and that is seventy-two percent effective. They all come from the trials. And again, remember, there were trials, which means they were controlled population experiments done at different times. So the Johnson & Johnson one, which is supposedly less efficacious than the other two, was done later, which means it was exposed to more variance. And so to the people listening, I would say take the first vaccine you can get because it will all make you safe and others around you safe. So I wouldn't worry about which one is more effective, which one is in numbers. It's almost like if you have a headache, and I give you a medication that's seventy-five percent effective versus sixty-nine percent effective. We don't know how it's going to act on our bodies. So just take it.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Professor Rajiv Kohli of William & Mary in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The Post-COVID world will require new skills and new approaches, and those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different MBA formats, including the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive, all taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty. The William & Mary MBA will prepare you to succeed and lead in our new world. Check out the MBA programs at William & Mary. Now back to our conversation with Professor Rajiv Kohli.

Ken White

How does the vaccine work? What is it actually doing to us?

Rajiv Kohli

So I guess without getting into the science of it, what the vaccine does, it learns from or the development of vaccine learns from how the virus is made up, what is the structure of the virus. And it passes on the harmless part of that instruction of how the virus behaves into the vaccine to the human body so that the human body sees how the virus behaves. And in doing so, it starts to develop these protections, self-protection, which is our immune system, so that when it actually sees the real virus, it knows what to do. So there are differences in the viruses or the vaccine that we have. One is a messenger RNA-based, and the other is a slightly different approach. That only means that how we deliver that vaccine into the human body, one has the instructions, only the other has the actual messenger automated. So that gets a little scientific. But the bottom line is it's preparing our bodies before it actually sees the virus as to what the virus looks like so that the body can prepare itself and the immune system is built up strong enough that when the actual virus hits, it knows how to neutralize it.

Ken White

That's pretty amazing when you really step back and think about it. It's amazing, isn't it? And it was developed in a relatively short period of time.

Rajiv Kohli

Very short period, and so the mRNA approach is not new. It has been used for Ebola. It has been used for other viruses. So that technique has been around for about twenty-five, thirty years now. So it's not new. What is new is how we use that for dealing with the coronavirus, whereas the previous vaccines were generally taking the weaker version of the virus itself and injecting into the body. We are not doing that. So, in fact, that makes it much safer because, with the old approach of putting in a weak virus, there was actually some small probability that people will get sick because it's actual virus, even though it's weak. But in this case, we're not putting any virus in. We are just simply putting the code. Think of this as a computer program that tells the body that this is what the virus looks like. So if you see this, how are you going to attack it? And the body says, okay, I'll build these antibodies, and I will attack it, and those t-cells float around your blood. And if you do get exposed to the virus, it knows what to do, and it kills it before it comes in.

Ken White

But yet some people are saying they didn't feel well for a few hours or maybe a day when they received their second shot. But how is that happening?

Rajiv Kohli

Oh, actually, if they don't feel well, that's a good news because that means the vaccine is working. So the temperature that we see oftentimes as a side effect, people get fever and so on, is actually body's way of learning how to deal with that virus, because it is a new thing that it's seen. So while building immunity, what the body is doing is getting used to that. But it's in a controlled environment. So that temperature usually lasts for twenty-four or 36 hours, usually after the second shot. After the first shot, you might get some muscle ache, or you might feel a little bit feverish, although we haven't heard many people get high temperatures. So that's just the body's way of getting used to this new intruder if you will. But in a controlled environment.

Ken White

It's been interesting to watch various countries, the rest of the world, and how they're dealing with it and fighting back. For instance, earlier a few days ago, the prime minister of New Zealand made the announcement that she was choosing one particular vaccine, the Pfizer vaccine. Why would they do that versus what we're doing in the U.S. with multiple vaccines?

Rajiv Kohli

So my research indicates that there is no real reason why they chose Pfizer over others. And it's not to indicate that they think that's safer than the others. New Zealand operates on a national health system, which is very different from the U.S., where it's mostly private. So when New Zealand decides to adopt a drug or a vaccine, in this case, it usually makes a deal with a company on a national basis. So the contract for the whole nation. That way, they can get a good deal, they can get a good price because they get better-negotiating power, and it's standardized. Everybody gets the same. New Zealand is a small country of four million people who need vaccination, the population maybe a little higher. So they really need about eight million shots, two for each. And it's not a large number that they want to divide up among multiple providers, which is what U.S. did, also U.S. was trying to kind of balance the risk, if you will, that if one company cannot make it fast enough, we have another one that's making. New Zealand has small numbers, relatively speaking.

Ken White

You and I are surrounded by college students, undergraduate, and graduate students, and one of the things they ask me almost daily is when can we travel abroad? They want to study abroad. And we've been doing that, of course, in a virtual arena. But they'd love to travel. When do you think the world will return to that day when we can visit one another across borders?

Rajiv Kohli

Ken that also is a very complex question because a lot of that depends on other countries and their readiness to receive us when we go over there and their own policies about how they will reopen their countries. I suspect that we'll see Europe and European countries be more open and willing to admit U.S. students, travelers, whereas countries in Asia that are slower to immunize their population, either because of resources or because of large populations like China and India, that will take some time. They will be a little bit later. So a lot depends on how much they are ready and also what happens between now and say end of this year. How the virus itself mutates and how effective are the vaccines against those, and how we are living our lives and trying to prevent the spread. So if you become lax and it spreads more, and there are there's more community spread, it'll slow the whole process down, and it will slow down the reopening, whether it's within the U.S. or outside the U.S.

Ken White

We certainly don't want that—fear of missing out. I talk to people who haven't had their vaccine yet, but it seems like everyone in my family has had it. You know, some people say, what do you say to those who are waiting? They're just not going to get the vaccine for a little while. What kind of advice do you have for them to feel better?

Rajiv Kohli

Well, the advice is that keep doing what you were doing until now. I go back to my earlier comment about we are in the homestretch. I know it's frustrating. I know you're looking at other people and saying so-and-so got an email to go get their first shot. How come I have not, or when will I get it? Just patience. So there's nothing different you have to do if you if you've done well this last year. Keep doing what you were doing. You know how to keep yourself safe and others safe. The vaccine rollout is actually moving faster than we had anticipated. And we are hearing now doctors' offices calling their patients and saying we can schedule a vaccine for you, which means that there is ample supply. So I know President Biden announced that there will be enough vaccines at the end of May. Now, that doesn't mean that everybody will have shots in their arm by the end of May. But the way things are going, we might see soon after May, everybody actually vaccinated, which is what gives me somewhat encouragement that July 4th may be the first time we'll hang out in and out outdoors with our friends and have a barbecue. We might still practice safe distancing and mask-wearing if we are too close or if we are with people outside our family group or bubble. So this thing is moving quite quickly and rapidly, and I'm encouraged by the speed at which we are moving along and giving vaccines to people.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Professor Rajiv Kohli, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Companies, organizations, and businesses are seeking professionals to lead in the Post-COVID world professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program. Offered in four formats the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive MBA. Check out the William & Mary MBA program to learn more. Finally, we'd love to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest Rajiv Kohli, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Cara Simpson & Vicki Harrington
Cara Simpson & Vicki HarringtonEpisode 149: March 1, 2021
Helping Others Through COVID

Cara Simpson & Vicki Harrington

Episode 149: March 1, 2021

Helping Others Through COVID

When the pandemic first took over the United States last March, two William & Mary MBA students decided to use their talents to help others, Cara Simpson and Vicki Harrington quickly founded the CrimDell Small Business Network, named after a popular landmark on the William & Mary campus. They formed a partnership with the Hampton Roads Small Business Development Center, then began offering free strategic business advising to small businesses in the greater Williamsburg area affected by the pandemic. Over 60 classmates joined in to serve as business analysts. Professors and leadership coaches at William & Mary's business school stepped up. The school's Graduate Career Management Center got involved. In less than a year, the organization has spent over 1500 hours helping 50 small businesses navigate the pandemic. Most of the businesses are women-, veterans-, or disability-owned enterprises. Simpson and Harrington join us today to talk about the success of the CrimDell Small Business Network, the lessons they've learned, and how utilizing your strengths can help others.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn | Spotify

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • How did Cara and Vicki come up with the idea of the CrimDell Small Business Network
  • How many students are involved in CrimDell
  • What is the focus of the CrimDell Small Business Network
  • How CrimDell was initially funded
  • What does CrimDell offer small business
  • What is the inspiration for the CrimDell business model
  • How have businesses reacted to the service
  • The meaning of Use Your Skillset
  • What the future holds for CrimDell
Transcript

Cara Simpson & Vicki Harrington: Helping Others Through COVID TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. When the pandemic first took over the United States last March, two William & Mary MBA students decided to use their talents to help others. Cara Simpson and Vicki Harrington quickly founded the CrimDell Small Business Network, named after a popular landmark on the William & Mary campus. They formed a partnership with the Hampton Roads Small Business Development Center, then began offering free strategic business advising to small businesses in the greater Williamsburg area affected by the pandemic. Over 60 classmates joined in to serve as business analysts, professors, and leadership coaches at William & Mary's Business School stepped up. The school's Graduate Career Management Center got involved. In less than a year, the organization has spent over fifteen hundred hours helping 50 small businesses navigate the pandemic. Most of the businesses are women, veterans, or disability-owned enterprises. Simpson and Harrington join us today to talk about the success of the CrimDell Small Business Network, the lessons they've learned, and how utilizing your strengths can help others. Here's our conversation with Cara Simpson and Vicki Harrington.

Ken White

Vicki, Cara, thanks for sharing your time and your story with us. Welcome. It's nice to have you here.

Cara Simpson

Thank you, Dean White. Thanks for inviting us.

Ken White

I'm trying to think full-time MBA students. How many have we had on the podcast series? Not many. So you're in an elite group, so. Yeah. So thanks for being here. I have to ask you this question because I've told so many people this story. I don't know if you remember. And that's my question. Do you remember when COVID first hit and we started to have meetings with the classes and we met with your class? And after a couple of basic questions, when do you think class will return to normal? You know, basic questions Vicki, you said what can we do as a class, as an MBA program, and as a business school to help others? Do you remember that?

Vicki Harrington

I do. And what's funny is I think the behind-the-scenes is a lot funnier than you realize because Cara and I had already started talking about ways to help. And Cara is the one that prompted me to ask that question.

Cara Simpson

I was driving. I was driving in my car, so I wasn't able to unmute.

Vicki Harrington

So it's funny. It's funny that you bring it up. You bring it up a lot. I'm glad you do it. I think it's it speaks to hopefully what a lot of us in the class were thinking.

Ken White

Absolutely. But it set the tone.

Vicki Harrington

It was Cara and I that did that from the beginning.

Ken White

But it set a tone. I think in the early days, early March, all of us humankind was saying, oh, no, what am I going to do? How is it going to affect me? I think that's a natural response. And so to hear that that early was really amazing. So how did you come up with the idea?

Cara Simpson

Well, I think we just looked at what we could do, and we looked at where we were poised as business students. And I remember talking to Vicki over WhatsApp one night, and we were both talking about our internships. We were thinking about how does this affect us? But thinking about, okay, well, we know this is also affecting small businesses. And so I think that's what made CrimDell work so well was the idea that we had this mutually beneficial relationship and we saw that there was something there, I made this really rudimentary infographic in PowerPoint, that basically it was a picture and had William & Mary community on one side and it had greater Williamsburg community on the other. And I put a bunch of circles in the middle of like EPs, government, MBA students, and drew some arrows back and forth. And this was the basically the proposal document. We were like. We know that we have something here. We know that we have skills that other people could use.

Ken White

Yeah. And so then from there, where did you go? I mean, because it's a funded organization. It has really grown. Where did you go from the beginning and from that original document?

Cara Simpson

The first person we texted was Nancy Turner, the EP.

Ken White

An executive partner, which is the organization here at the business school of some active, some semi-retired, and retired executives who are absolutely fantastic. So you reached out to them.

Cara Simpson

And Nancy has been a huge advocate for Vicki and I as well as other students since we've gotten here. And so she actually introduced us to a bigger group of people in the William & Mary community, including Rachel Frazier, Graham Henshaw, Julie Summ's. There is a bunch of people at this meeting, and it was a zoom called mostly designed around these MBA students have an idea. And we didn't know that we were being put sort of in the center of attention like this, but we were ready. So we basically

Vicki Harrington

And it was interesting, too, because, you know, we had this idea in what we thought was a silo of saying we want to help. We don't know-how. Who can we go to? Someone, you know, executive partner. And she was like, oh, these conversations are already happening all over William & Mary. People are already trying to figure out how to help. Let me put you in touch with them. And so, you know, we had Cara's beautiful sketch of, hey, students need internships, businesses need help pivoting and reimagining. And really, we just kept knocking on virtual zoom doors until we didn't hear the word no.

Cara Simpson

And people were really excited about it really quickly. I think

Ken White

Yeah.

Cara Simpson

it was. I think it made easy sense to people, even though we didn't have a really clear vision of exactly how we were going to do what we wanted to do. And the more we pushed, the more conversations we had, the more barriers did come up in front of us. People were asking us, well, did you consider liability? Did you consider how you're going to get a hold of people? All of these things and our answers are basically, no, but we can now.

Ken White

Yeah.

Vicki Harrington

Thanks for bringing that to our attention.

Ken White

No kidding.

Vicki Harrington

Now we will accomplish it now.

Ken White

Yeah.

Vicki Harrington

Now we will do it.

Ken White

So how did you get other students on board quickly?

Vicki Harrington

We tried to get them involved pretty early on, really in the beginning. And to this day, we consider ourselves a very flat organization. We've had over our lifetime sixty students involved. Currently, we sit around thirty-five, and it's this idea that you know how you can help best. We want to bring a culture and a community together of show me what you've got, you know, and what can you bring to the table for CrimDell.

Cara Simpson

And early on, before we were called, Crimdell. Students were texting us left and right. They're like we hear you've got something going. There's a buzz. We didn't even know we didn't intend for there to be a buzz right away. And it was really overwhelming because I remember having this feeling of I don't totally understand what this looks like yet. How can I bring in a team of people to help when I'm just

Vicki Harrington

We're still figuring it out. But then we realized we're only two people. Let's open a door and see what happens. And I think that's something that we've been. I would say, very successful with, is listening to others and bringing other people's ideas in.

Ken White

It sounds like you were sort of, you know, building the plane while you were flying it, so to speak. Right.

Vicki Harrington

We say that all the time, we're building the car as you drive it over the bridge.

Ken White

Yeah. So how did you come to the how did you come to everybody's hearts and minds were in the right place. Let's use our expertise to help others. How did you actually kind of focus in on what are we going to do and who are we going?

Cara Simpson

Well, I think a bit of a chance introduction Rachel Fraizer from the from Launchpad. She introduced us to Jim Carroll at the Hampton Roads Small Business Development Center. And he in our first meeting, he told us that he's willing to meet with us every Friday, 1:00. And at first, we didn't really understand what it was he was looking to do, but he did counsel small businesses, and he saw what we were able to offer. And it was really key timing because this was right before the first round of PPP. The funding was released to the public.

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Cara Simpson

Of course, the payroll protection funds as part of the Cares Act. So they knew at the SPDC that they were about to be overwhelmed with requests from the small business community. So he gave us an opportunity. He helped us find that first bit of funding that allowed us to pay students for this work. And we thought that was something really important and we really excited about.

Ken White

So, yes. So then, yeah, you had payroll, and you had some money in the bank. So the checks didn't bounce, so to speak. Right. And then what were you offering businesses at that time?

Vicki Harrington

So and it's similar to our model today. We act as SPDC counselors. So SPDC, like Cara mentioned, is the Small Business Development Center. It's an organization funded through the Small Business Administration as well as local entities in the community. And their whole mission is to provide free counseling to businesses. So what we do is we kind of do a little bit more in-depth than the usual business counseling that SPDC does. We take teams of two students and set them up with a business, and they have to define a project scope, something that's, you know, bite-size, something that they can chew on. And over the course of a roughly 20 hours or three weeks, depending on the project, they meet with local experts. They, you know, do a lot of fact-finding, get things from the business, and present actionable recommendations at the end.

Cara Simpson

And this was inspired a lot by the corporate field consultancy class that is offered here at the School of Business.

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Cara Simpson

And we actually had a conversation with Terry Shannon, who's in charge of the CFC class at the very beginning, because we recognize the parallels between what they offer as a seven-week course and what we wanted to be able to turn out at a faster rate, not for corporate clients, but for small businesses here in Williamsburg.

Ken White

Right.

Cara Simpson

So we had his help in terms of design and guidance. We also reached out to Dawn Edmiston, and she helped us a lot with creating an organizational structure that allowed us to function more efficiently as a student organization. And that's where we went from. Vicki and Cara trying to figure this out to Vicki and Cara, co-founders and managing directors.

Ken White

And Dawn Edmiston, one of our marketing professors here at the business school.

Vicki Harrington

It took a village of business school.

Ken White

It sure did. It was so interesting to see the documents and more names and more names and more expertise.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Cara Simpson and Vicki Harrington of the CrimDell Small Business Network in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. You know, the post COVID world will require new skills and new approaches. And those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different MBA formats, including the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive, all taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty. The William & Mary MBA will prepare you to succeed and lead in our new world. Check out the MBA programs at William & Mary. Now back to our conversation with William & Mary MBA students Cara Simpson and Vicky Harrington, the founders of the Criminal Small Business Network.

Ken White

One thing comes to mind how do businesses react when you say we have a couple of fairly young MBAs who are going to help you in something you may have worked on for 40 years? What was the reaction?

Vicki Harrington

It's such a great question because it's something that I think we stress so much to our students. Our students have just as much to learn from the business as the business owner may be able to learn from the student. So our business owners, like you said, a lot of them have been in the field for 10, 20, 30, 50 years.

Ken White

Yeah.

Vicki Harrington

And they are an expertise at whatever they do best, and no one has an expertise at everything. Right. And so, you know, business students, we're young, we're hungry. We're trying to prove ourselves, and we need practice. So it's this amazing opportunity to take what we're learning in the classroom and actually translate it into a hands-on experience that really, honestly helps the business owner just think a little bit differently. Right. It's that second eye.

Cara Simpson

We look at the counseling. We offer, as, you know, some form of catharsis for these people that are spending all of their time just totally in tunnel vision, looking at their problems really close up. And so we're offering this opportunity for a different perspective. And even and if we're able to make sure that students are coming at this, not as I'm going to tell you what to do and how to run your business, I'm going to instead share with you my skills and my background and see what would work to make your life better.

Ken White

Yeah.

Vicki Harrington

And all of our first meetings, we have a little presentation. We have students run through, and on one side, huge, it's just as at CrimDell we work with you, and it's not for you. It's not beneath you. It's with you.

Ken White

What are some of the success stories when you look back?

Cara Simpson

Oh, so I think one of the earlier clients, maybe, maybe halfway through, I think it was really interesting talking to the business analyst, the student. This is what we call the one they're working with the business, the business analyst. We were talking with them, and they were almost finishing a project with someone in early child care. And they were talking about how they were just so excited about how incredibly complicated working in this industry is and how she's explaining to us. Do you realize how they are on razor-thin margins, and now their capacity is cut in half, and they have to do this in their prices? And it is a complicated business problem. And it's something where, you know, to someone day to day, you don't think about these like strategic business challenges that people are facing. So that's a success in terms of our side feeling like we're opening up people in our organization, their eyes, to the business problems going around. Also, we've got some really great testimonials on the other side, and those are always really great to read. I don't think we've gotten one negative feedback yet.

Vicki Harrington

Yeah. And I mean, we are constantly trying to narrow our scope, but reality is we'll do any kind of project that's brought to us, and we like that. We consider ourselves generalists. We've done cash flow projections. We've done pricing strategies. We've done social media marketing plans. Gosh, we've done we do a lot of IT counseling. That was a big thing, especially in the beginning, businesses needing to get online. And so, you know, it's the site, it's two students being able to take that time and say, no, let's compare websites. You know, let's and not only let's compare websites because that's kind of functions in a vacuum. Let's put it on your cash flow statement. Let's see what it's going to cost you per month.

Ken White

Nice.

Vicki Harrington

Let's see. You know what that looks like.

Ken White

Yeah. Before we started to record, you mentioned use your skillset. Vicki, tell me a little more about that. What did you mean when you say that.

Vicki Harrington

Yeah. So everyone has something to bring to the table, right. Everyone, you know, has innately what they think they're good at, what they want to do. And it's this idea that you know, especially in times of uncertainty and crisis, it's the best thing you can do is kind of look within and say, what can I offer? What can I do? So, you know, as business students can't go and administer vaccines, we can't give PPP to folks in need, but we can provide the skill set that we have to help in the crisis that's happening with small businesses.

Cara Simpson

And that's, I think, how as a society we achieve maximum potential rate, everybody contributing what they are best suited to contribute. So I think that was the attitude we started with. And actually, during our orientation, you had an alumni from some year, and I don't remember his name, but I remember that he was talking about how success happens, where preparation meets opportunity. I don't know that student's name, but I remember listening that and thinking like that's a bit cliche, but it stuck in my head so well, and I think about it all the time to that, okay, this is really like what am I prepared for right now? And if I'm not totally prepared, and I have this opportunity. What can I do to get prepared as fast as possible?

Vicki Harrington

Yeah.

Ken White

So what's up moving forward? What are you hoping to do? You two will graduate not too far away. That's coming up pretty quickly here in May. Yeah. So what are you hoping takes place moving forward?

Vicki Harrington

So we just hired 14 new business analysts from our first-year class, so.

Cara Simpson

And one undergrad.

Vicki Harrington

And one undergrad.

Ken White

Nice.

Vicki Harrington

We do like to include some all-star undergrads in our cohort. Everything moving forward for Cara and I has been related to how do we continue to sustain this program.

Cara Simpson

And these conversations they started in August when the school was coming back. We are recognizing this is our second year. Everything we need to do needs to be based around a succession plan.

Vicki Harrington

Because we think, you know, born out of crisis, but something that continually will contribute to the community. So we are currently looking for a replacement managing director. We're currently trying to get funding in line. You know, there's a lot of moving parts.

Cara Simpson

Our board of directors already has to first-year students on it. And they've already given their word that they want to keep doing this into next year. So we know we've got at least a couple of leaders on board and ready to go. And we are still in communication regularly with Jim Carroll with our SPDC partners. We have a dedicated advisor, Tim Ryan. We've been forming more connections at the business school in terms of oversight to Professor Wagner, Phil Wagner. He's actually taken on a little bit more responsibility.

Vicki Harrington

He's our faculty advisor.

Cara Simpson

Yes. Yeah. So he's talking to us about what he can do to make sure this keeps going.

Ken White

Yeah.

Cara Simpson

A lot of pieces.

Vicki Harrington

We try and weave ourselves in ways that make sure we stay around even when we're gone.

Ken White

The crisis or not. It sounds like your goal is to be there for small businesses in the region who could use some expertise they may not have.

Vicki Harrington

Yeah, and it's I think it's a model that really does work for both sides. You know, it's I I myself was doing applications and interviews last semester, and I had to continually remind myself to talk less about CrimDell because

Ken White

On your job interviews, you mean.

Vicki Harrington

Yeah, because I had so I was like, well, this one time, you know, planning this meeting. And I had so much expertise coming from working with small businesses. So, you know, it really, really helped students in the job market to say, no, let me tell you about the time. And I did this.

Cara Simpson

And also, I mean, the idea didn't come out of nowhere even before COVID, Vicky, and I were planning an event as MBAA club leads, and we attended the Williamsburg Economic Development Luncheon to try to meet some small business owners to talk about potential for them to get more interaction with the business school. And we were meeting people from Williamsburg local government, and they were so excited to have William & Mary MBA students at the luncheon, they were telling us to come back again to invite friends. Yes, they'd love to do more. And so we saw that there was this desire from the community to increase interaction with us. And this desire won't go away

Vicki Harrington

Yeah.

Cara Simpson

once COVID is over.

Vicki Harrington

Or and once we're gone. Yeah.

Ken White

And that's our conversation with Cara Simpson and Vicki Harrington, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Organizations and businesses are seeking professionals to lead in our post COVID world. Professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively, and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats the full-time, the part-time, the online, and the executive. Check out the William & Mary MBA program to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guests Cara Simpson and Vicki Harrington. And thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Trey Taylor
Trey TaylorEpisode 148: February 15, 2021
A CEO Does Three Things

Trey Taylor

Episode 148: February 15, 2021

A CEO Does Three Things

For some CEOs and leaders, getting pulled in countless directions each day is par for the course. Many leaders feel they have to be involved in all aspects of their business. When that happens, they end up spending valuable time, effort, and focus on low priority items and low priority decisions. Before they know it, they're overworked and burned out. And they fail to move the organization forward. Trey Taylor says instead of doing everything, leaders should focus on the right things. Taylor's the Managing Director of trinity | blue, a consultancy that helps C-Suite leaders succeed. He's also the author of "A CEO Only Does Three Things: Finding your focus in the C-Suite." In the book, Taylor shares his three pillars of business: Culture, people, and numbers. He says when leaders embrace the three pillars, they create fulfilled and efficient professional lives. They end up focusing on the work they love, and they avoid CEO burnout.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • How Trey found the time to write his book
  • Why do most leaders spend so much time on low priority items
  • What leads to CEO burnout
  • What are the three pillars CEOs should focus on
  • How is workplace culture defined
  • What is the role of the CEO in defining culture
  • why should a CEO have a good understanding of people
  • How involved should a CEO be with recruitment
  • Why should a CEO be transparent with the company's numbers
Transcript

Trey Taylor: A CEO Does Three Things TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business. The podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. For some CEOs and leaders, getting pulled in countless directions each day is par for the course. Many leaders feel they have to be involved in all aspects of their business. Well, when that happens, they end up spending valuable time, effort, and focus on low priority items and low priority decisions. Before they know it, they're overworked and burned out, and they've failed to move the organization forward. Trey Taylor says instead of doing everything, leaders should focus on the right things. Taylor is the managing director of trinity | blue, a consultancy that helps C-suite leaders succeed. He's also the author of A CEO Only Does Three Things: Finding Your Focus in the C Suite. In the book, Taylor shares his three pillars of business culture, people, and numbers. He says when leaders embrace the three pillars, they create fulfilled and efficient professional lives. They end up focusing on the work they love, and they avoid CEO burnout. Here's our conversation with Trey Taylor, author of A CEO Only Does Three Things.

Ken White

Well, Trey, thanks very much for taking your time and your willingness to share your expertise with us. Nice to see you.

Trey Taylor

Ken, a real pleasure to be with you.

Ken White

A first question, because we have so many listeners who, like you, have great expertise, are extremely busy, could write a terrific book, but just don't find the time. How in the world did you manage to write a book when you're working so much, and life is full?

Trey Taylor

It's a great question Ken, the only way I ever made progress in writing a book, and it did take me probably two and a half years. Number one was to carve out time to do it. So I would take a week every quarter and go away somewhere from the family. So I'd go nice places to treat myself, but I would work on the book in those places. And number two, I had to hire people to help me with things that they knew how to do that I didn't. So I didn't hire a ghostwriter, but I had somebody come in and interview me sort of for 12 one-hour sessions, put those things on paper for me so that I could move them around a little bit and get some semblance of order into my thoughts. I'm a huge believer in the outsource economy anyway, and I outsourced as much of this as I could while still making it mine.

Ken White

That's that's great. Everybody seems to have their game plan. And yours is interesting because mostly what I hear is I try to write an hour a day or every other day. But yeah, that's interesting. And it worked. Obviously, the book is out. It's doing well. And you're helping people find their focus in the C suite. So why, in your experience, do so many leaders spend so much time on those low-priority items instead of the big items?

Trey Taylor

Because leaders are good people and they're people-focused people and the people that work for them, they want to be successful. And if I just help this person with this task once or twice or three times, then they will learn it, take it over and do it for themselves. It's a complete myth that we tell ourselves over and over any executive that tells you that he is not guilty of that particular management sin is not then is then guilty of another management sin of lack of personal candor because we all do that. There's a famous HBR article about the monkey on my back, the most famous Harvard Business Review article. And we're all guilty of that. So the answer to the question is we do for others hoping they will do for themselves. And in reality, over time, we're teaching them that they don't have to do that. So we are the buck stops here. We're the final stop on the tour. And so we end up doing not only the job that we are hired to do but pieces of the job that we hire other people to do as well.

Ken White

In doing that, to a large extent, lead to ineffectiveness, lead to burnout.

Trey Taylor

Absolutely. It absolutely leads to both of those things. I'm really glad you brought up the burnout piece because it's you are doing the work that you've hired other people to do, and you've invested a lot of confidence in people to come in and work for you. And you every manager gets super excited when they hire somebody because they say this person is going to do great. I'm going to do less of that kind of job and more of my own job. The organization as a whole is going to perform better, but in reality, we get into these bad habits of over helping, of overdoing for other people. And it's a little counterintuitive because I'm a full believer that we should really practice whole person management, but no part of whole-person management is doing someone's job for them. That's actually a very defeating thing to teach someone.

Ken White

You say leaders and CEOs should focus on three items, three pillars, culture, people, and numbers. Let's start with culture. How do you define that? What do you mean when you say that?

Trey Taylor

So for me, culture is the ethical environment in which we live and work. Some people refer to it sort of as the fish tank. You don't know that the water is there until the water gets dirty until you get into this dysfunctional culture. And really what it is, is it's the sum of agreed values and behaviors that come from those values that we all agree that this is how we want to behave. This is how we want to react to certain challenges, and this is how we want to play up and down the field of business and life that come to us. What I notice about cultures, it's every organization has a culture. Whether you like the culture that you have or you don't care for it. It all you have one no matter what. And what I find is that people and we preach this very religiously, that CEOs should articulate the culture. Now, sometimes that means just announcing this is what we have in the culture that exists. And then sometimes there's some art to it to say, hey, we really don't like this part of the culture. So we're going to manage away from that with aspirational values and applied consistently over time. You really can remake the culture in the image that you really want to see.

Ken White

So it's more of repeating and communicating the agreed values. That's the role of the CEO in culture.

Trey Taylor

Yeah, absolutely. So you articulate the values first, the ones that you really want to be true for the organization. They have to be grounded in some truth of what's already there, but they can be aspirational to some extent as well. Number two is that you're going to overcommunicate the culture. My team, when I started this in my own company, they were sick of the word culture by three months in because I overcommunicated it all the time. And then third, I'm going to pass that responsibility for communication over to other people in the organization so that it becomes a conversation and not just me preaching it all the time. It's not a sermon. And in doing that, we ritualize the culture.

Ken White

But that third piece is so tough to hand it over because most leaders want to do it right and be a part of it.

Trey Taylor

Yeah, absolutely. So I don't cede it to anyone. I simply invite them into the conversation and say this is how I feel about this particular value that we have identified as something important. How do you feel about it, and where do you see it show up in our organization. And we do that in a ritualized format. We just do it by email on the Monday of every week. Someone takes one of our values. We have 13. We call them b attitudes. Someone takes it, and they say, here's the value. This is what I think it means to me. And this is where I've seen another person in the organization practice it well. And we've been doing that exercise for six to seven years now.

Ken White

Interesting. William & Mary does the same every time we meet someone has the value, and they have a little personal story about what it means to them and how they've seen it sort of in action. But you have three elements, and you've chosen culture as one of the three.

Trey Taylor

Absolutely.

Ken White

So obviously, you feel this is very critically important for leaders.

Trey Taylor

Yeah, so the CEOs, the only position in the company doesn't come with a job description. Right. And so, my argument here is this is the job description for the CEO, and the CEO should do the things that no one else in the organization can do. And I don't mean by ability. I mean by perspective. Right. So is it okay to cede the culture formation and management to someone without the authority to build cultural rituals or necessarily the ability because of where they stand in the organization or the information necessary to do it? No, none of that is okay. So I think that that you have to trace that to the one position in the organization that has all three of those, and that happens to be the CEO.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Trey Taylor, author of A CEO Only Does Three Things, in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary's School of Business. The post-covid world will require new skills and new approaches while those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different formats, including the full-time, the evening, the online, and the executive, all taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty. The William & Mary MBA will prepare you to succeed in our new world. Check out the MBA programs at William & Mary today. Now back to our conversation with Trey Taylor, author of A CEO Only Does Three Things.

Ken White

Your second pillar, which CEO should prioritize, is people. How do you define that? What do you mean by?

Trey Taylor

Absolutely you won't have much of a culture if you don't have people participating in the culture. And it becomes a cultural exercise in the selecting of people who are going to go on the journey with you. And that really is what it's all about in people. So we give a little bit of a primer on here's how you understand people. And a lot of that work comes from the work of  Ron Willingham, who you probably know, and then it becomes about how do we recruit? And we have a little bit of a different take on what recruiting has to be in this style age today when it is so very easy to get a gig economy job or something of that nature. So we have a little bit of a specific process that's different than what people have said. And it's very challenging process. So a lot of people look at it and say, well, I could never do that. And then, we show some examples of where that works. And then finally, it's about talent retention and the mindset around. You're not hiring a team member. You're not you're hiring talent the same way Hollywood hires talent. Who's the best person to play this role that we have scripted for them in this movie?

Ken White

Recruiting, doing it right is is so time-consuming. And I think some organizations just aren't willing to put the time in, put an ad out, see who applies and let's go with it. That can certainly backfire. Can't it?

Trey Taylor

Yeah, absolutely backfires all of the time. And what I hear from CEOs so many of so many times when we do consulting engagements, I don't have time to worry about my literal, most important thing that I could possibly do today, which is add someone to the team. And we've got some great examples. Larry Page, when he used to be the CEO of Google, which was a huge company then, even bigger now, you could not fill a job until he had at least put eyes on the resume. And this is when they had about eighteen thousand employees. Now, at some point, I think that bottlenecked, and they went a different way with it. But the whole point is, if Larry Page can do that for five years, my client, who's running a 40 life insurance company or something, definitely can take a little bit of time to do that and be engaged in the process in the conversation.

Ken White

Also, with people, you mentioned retention. What are some of the more effective ways you've seen and you liked to retain the high-quality players on the team?

Trey Taylor

Retention is all about letting your people know that the role that they are playing and the person that they are are important to the organization and to you personally. So CEOs really do have to reach out and say thank you for what you're doing in several different ways. And one of those ways sometimes is you're doing well, but you could do so much better. Let's invest in that together or something of that nature. But it's all about being personally involved in the life of the team member of the person who's on the journey with you.

Ken White

It's always nice to hear from the boss, isn't it?

Trey Taylor

Absolutely.

Ken White

Your third pillar is numbers. What do you mean by numbers?

Trey Taylor

So numbers, this is the biggest pushback that we get in the book numbers. The CEO says, well, that's the CFOs job to do. And for me, it's like James Madison was the first guy at the Constitutional Convention. Why? Not because he thought he would hijack something or influence it. All he wanted to do was to set the agenda of what was debated. And so he got there, and he got on the agenda committee. They called it something else, I'm sure, but that's all he wanted to do. So the CEO's job is to set the agenda when it comes to numbers. Here are the numbers that we need to achieve for the organization to live up to the potential and us be able to achieve the goals that we want to achieve long term. Someone else can manage those numbers. Someone else can measure them and report them out and that sort of thing. If your CFO or finance director, whoever that happens to be, but the CEO has to set the agenda, and then common theme overcommunicate. These are the goals. These are the goals. These are the goals. This is where we are and that sort of thing and be remarkably transparent. This is one of the big pushes in the book is to really share numbers that you think may not be something of interest to people in the organization. But when you do, you empower them to help you achieve those numbers in really startling ways.

Ken White

Absolutely. Any can you think of an example of someone who embraces the culture, people, numbers framework that you've created?

Trey Taylor

Yeah, I've had several clients go through the whole process with us, and we had a an insurance company in Corpus Christi, Texas, and they were going through a management transition so that the number two was becoming the number one and the previous number one was still in the organization as the chairman and still had an enormous moral influence over this is how we do things, very cultural icon for the business. And so we wanted to articulate the new generation of culture and how those behaviors show up in our people on a daily basis. They had a numbers issue because the previous outgoing CEO was sort of old and set in his ways and hadn't modernized and adopted systems that would embrace the current environment. So we had a numbers issue there, and then some people were leaving some natural attrition, but some also because their boss was leaving, they were going to transition out as well. So we had a recruiting problem as well. So over the course of a couple of years, we had a lot of work to do and tweak. And because it was very much almost a vaccination of a lot of new principals coming into a host organization, we were worried about the possibility of rejection. And so we had to do a lot of very good internal one-on-one conversations. So the first three months we scheduled, she had eight hours of conversations scheduled every single day. One on one

Ken White

Wow.

Trey Taylor

with about one hundred and forty people.

Ken White

Wow.

Trey Taylor

And we just banged it out. And she went in with an articulated strategy and said, here's where I'm going to take this organization over the next two years. Here's an invitation for you to come along with it.

Ken White

Wow, and obviously, if you're using it as an example, it worked.

Trey Taylor

It worked beautifully for her. She had started in that organization, in the mailroom or secretarial support or something of that nature, and had risen to the top of the organization. No one knew it better than she did. But knowing it was not enough, she really had to lead the organization to the vision that she had and very successful in doing that over a two-year period, yeah.

Ken White

For a CEO who says, I don't know if I can do it, I don't know if I can focus on three things. I know how big the job is. What do you say? What advice do you have?

Trey Taylor

Yeah, so I admit defeat on that point because we all get to that point. Here's what I ask CEOs to do. And I have a little pad on my own desk that I print out once a year. And it has the date on it, and it has culture, people, numbers, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. And what I give myself permission to do is once I have satisfied something on those three things every single day, then I'm allowed to go do my to-do list for the day, because, of course, we have full-time jobs outside some of us, multiple jobs outside of just running the culture, people and numbers of this organization. All I'm really trying to do is to get C-suite executives to touch the long term on a daily basis.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Trey Taylor, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Businesses and organizations are seeking professionals to lead in the post-covid world professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program. Offered in four formats the full-time, the evening, the online, and the executive MBA. Check us out online to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest Trey Taylor, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Fawn Germer
Fawn GermerEpisode 147: February 1, 2021
Unemployed at 60

Fawn Germer

Episode 147: February 1, 2021

Unemployed at 60

There are few things in life more stressful than being out of work. Mid- to late-career professionals face an especially difficult challenge. The unemployment rate for older professionals is more than three times the national average. And as this group exits the workforce due to downsizing, COVID-19, or termination, it takes them twice as long as others to get hired, and often for less money than they had been making. The picture for unemployed workers over 50 is not pretty. But rather than blame the market or age discrimination, our guest today says "look in the mirror." Fawn Germer is the best-selling author of nine books, including her latest, "Coming Back: How to win the job you want when you've lost the job you need." She says many experienced professionals have not kept up with technology, the skills needed today, social media, and the overall pace of change. She says older workers want to come back, but they don't always know how. She shares her advice with us today.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What's the first thing a mid-career professional should do when they lose their job
  • Should an unemployed mid-career professional strive to stay in the same industry
  • When should someone take a job that isn't the right fit for them
  • Where should an unemployed professional start to look for work
  • What are networking best practices in the time of COVID
  • How should a job-seeker employ social media
  • The importance of presenting well on video calls
  • How to mentally overcome age discrimination
Transcript

Fawn Germer: Unemployed at 60 TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. There are few things in life more stressful than being out of work. Mid to late-career professionals face an especially difficult challenge. The unemployment rate for older professionals is more than three times the national average. And as this group exits the workforce due to downsizing, COVID-19 or termination, it takes them twice as long as others to get hired and often for less money than they had been making. The picture for unemployed workers over 50 is not pretty. But rather than blame the market or age discrimination. Our guest today says, look in the mirror. Fawn Germer is the best-selling author of nine books, including her latest Coming Back How to Win the Job You Want When You've Lost the Job You Need. She says many experienced professionals have not kept up with technology. The skills needed today, social media, and the overall pace of change. She says older workers want to come back, but they don't always know-how. She shares her advice with us today. Here's our conversation with Fawn Germer, author of Coming Back How to Win the Job You Want When You Lost the Job You Need.

Ken White

Well, Fawn, thanks very much for being with us. We appreciate your time and sharing your expertise with us. It's nice to see you.

Fawn Germer

It's great to be with you.

Ken White

For the mid-career professional or someone even later than mid-career who just lost their job for whatever reason. That's a boy that's a life event that can really shake you with your experience and expertise. How would you advise somebody? What's the first thing maybe they should do when that happens?

Fawn Germer

Well, I think I'm supposed to say buy my book, but it's make up your mind. That you're going to get in the game, that the people who will win and believe me, if you make up your mind, you will win. But the people who win are the ones who say; I'm not gone. That you don't buy into this idea that it's going to be so hard and you're never going to breakthrough. You're going to breakthrough. It's going to be a challenge. It's going to be a test to see how tough you are. But if you make up your mind, you will get where you need to go. And then I'm going to give you one more thing. The next thing you do is you make a list. You make a list of every single thing you need to do so that when you start to lose momentum or when it gets discouraging, you always have one more thing to do because, you know, you work out, you know this when your feet are hurting, and you feel like you can't go any further if you just take the next step and the next step, you get where you need to go. So if you have a list, you just do the next thing on the list and the next thing on the list and with the certainty that you are going to do it.

Ken White

Excellent. I think most people if they were to lose their job late in their careers, might think I better look in the field where I've spent the most time. Do you recommend they stay in the same profession or look elsewhere?

Fawn Germer

Well, that's hard to say because it depends on what the field is. You're looking at a former newspaper person, and if somebody lost their job in newspapers, I'd be like, you got to go look for another gig because that dance has about run its course.

Ken White

Right.

Fawn Germer

But what I would do is do some research on your industry, see if it's still viable. And then the first thing you ask yourself is, do I still like this? And if you still like it, can you get hired? And really, you want to eliminate the negative out of your mindset, saying I'll never get a job because that's going to make it hard for you to make a good decision. You have to be able to be realistic about it. Is that do you have opportunities that you can get? And if you still love it? Stay in it, but don't try to force the world to accept skills that are no longer being utilized. The world has changed. If it's still a viable profession and you love it, stay. If not, go.

Ken White

How about fit? How much does the job have to fit? And do I have to like it 100 percent, 80 percent, 50 percent at this stage in life?

Fawn Germer

Well, and sometimes it depends on how long you've been unemployed because sometimes you need to have a job in order to get a job. So you may take something that's not a good fit just to show that you're employable, but you want the right fit because you are entitled to have work that is meaningful, that makes you happy. Sometimes you have to, on a short term basis, take something that doesn't feel quite right. And you do it because you've got to take the next step to get where you need to go.

Ken White

Which might mean lower pay, for example.

Fawn Germer

Sometimes that is common. I really tell people that from the beginning, keep your mindset that you're going to be able to get pay. That is going to take care of you. You have to be able to eat. But there are times when you will take something for less. And largely that's something I write a lot about, is that the world changed. So if you're the person in the office who has the highest paycheck, that automatically makes you more vulnerable because technologically younger people are coming out of school who will work for a third the cost and who likely can do more than you can. So they're going to take the cheaper work. So in those kinds of situations, if you can't justify the higher paycheck, you will be taking a pay cut. But you want to upskill and learn everything you possibly can. So you're not just seen as somebody with experience, but as somebody who can lead your company and your organization into the future so that you're not the best person for the job today. But in five years.

Ken White

Upscaling is a great point. I'm not so sure some people even know where to begin. Is it determining maybe what you want to do and then getting the skills? How do you approach that?

Fawn Germer

Well, I say it's pretty easy if you regularly read The Wall Street Journal, Ink, Fast Company, and you don't have to read every article, scan the tables of contents, see what's going on, and then Google your industry. If my industry if I were in the news industry, I would Google trends in newspapers, and I would see what's going on with that if I'm in the insurance business trends in the insurance business and see what's coming. And everybody really needs to look at artificial intelligence, robotics, blockchain, big data, and machine learning and see how those things are going to impact their specific skill set. And then you just one by one take something, so you're at least familiar with those things. And that's the easiest thing in the world. There is so much learning out there that is free with these online courses. And you can say I've studied artificial intelligence from Harvard professors for free. You don't have to get an A in the class. You need the information. So always add something into your repertoire. And sometimes it's confusing. Blockchain that that's something I couldn't understand it. It took me forever. I did so many YouTube videos. I still didn't get it. And then I found a video on how to teach a, I think, six-year-old about watching. And then I watched that ten-minute video, and I understood blockchains like even if you take it to its easiest level and then start from there, you get the training you need. And let's admit it, we thought we were technologically up to date. We're not, and companies don't care about experience as much as they care about relevance. So if you've got time and you're not working, make yourself relevant. It's not hard, and the payoff is huge.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Fawn Germer, author of Coming Back How to Win the Job You Want When You've Lost the Job You Need in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The post COVID world will require new skills and new approaches. And those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different formats, including the full-time, the evening, the online, and the executive, all taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty. The William & Mary MBA will prepare you to succeed in our new world. Check out the MBA programs at William & Mary today. Now back to our conversation with Fawn Germer.

Ken White

What about networking? That's uncomfortable for a lot of people, but when you're out of work, that's a that's an important thing to do. What advice do you have for people in terms of networking?

Fawn Germer

Well, I am an introvert. If I go to a party, it's kind of, you know, unless I'm there as the speaker, I'm very engaged because people come up to me. But if I have to go up to them, it's hard. So you do want to get in the room, and it's very easy to network during COVID because you people are available, so you can do informational Zoom calls all the time and ask people who are your mentors to hook you up with their mentors and just do these little informal meetings, and you build this network, and it's useless if you don't ask your network for help. And I don't mean saying, hey, do you mind sending my resume out? I mean, you say, can you send my resume to Jim Davis tomorrow? It's about this job. And I would like to make an appointment to see him next week, blow some of your clout because it's no good to have clout if you don't use it. And so it's you got to go guerilla. Your network will help you again and again, but you have to specifically show it what you want.

Ken White

And then in terms of personal branding, social media, you say that's a place that people have to have to look at. They've got to embrace it. How do you what do you do what you say when you talk about social media to folks later on in their career? So we're looking for new work?

Fawn Germer

Right. LinkedIn, LinkedIn, LinkedIn, LinkedIn. And I'm somebody who is not that crazy about all of those social media. I do like Facebook so I can post my kayaking pictures, but we have to do this, and it shows that you are a player. And if you have ten companies that you're targeting, start adding contacts in those companies because recruiters see that you have people in their company already. So that gives you points. And then if you start commenting on those people and what they post, that gives you more of a connection to be able to say, hey, I'm really interested in your company, what would you suggest I do? So social media automatically builds your network, and your ability to use it makes you a viable player in that network. It's just the way we do business now.

Ken White

Do you recommend people write and publish on LinkedIn?

Fawn Germer

Yeah, LinkedIn is the place. That is the place. And so you do that, you write your articles if you want, but be in the right groups, and people love it when others comment and say they did a good job with their posts. So just schmooze the right people, and they'll start noticing your name.

Ken White

You and I are talking on Zoom. I can't think of too many companies that do not use video interview, even pre-COVID. Is video and communicating on video something that this generation is adapting to, or they having struggles adapting to that.

Fawn Germer

Well, I think people like it. The older people are certainly figuring out how to use it so they can stay in touch with their children and grandchildren. So they just have to realize that this is the way that business is done then.

Ken White

Yeah.

Fawn Germer

And it's frustrating to me because I can't sneak off and look at Amazon while I'm having a business meeting. I have to pay attention fully. But it is the way business is being done. It is the way people are being interviewed constantly. And then, you know, companies don't think a thing of it. So when you're on that, you've got to really be sure that you've got good lighting, that you've got good sound, test out your camera and your sound before you do it. So you reboot your computer, and when you start, you say, hey, let me get a callback number in case something goes wrong here. Stick your dog in the other room, all of these things, because you want to create an impression that you've got it going on. And the other thing is get the garbage out of the back of your room. You want people to see that you have a professional set up, and sometimes it's you can make it interesting with whatever books you have or whatever things are out there. But what you don't want to do is look like you're a mess and that this was just some afterthought. And particularly for older people, your appearance is so important that you don't look like you're some frumpy old person. And believe me, I'm in the age group that I could qualify for that. But get your hair done. Get the right outfit, dress for your top and your bottom, because you may have to stand up, but you don't have to wear shoes, okay, and just make a good presentation. And you know, the other thing being that that connect, look into the camera, look at that person and validate them by just showing that you're seeing them, you're looking at them, you're taking them seriously.

Ken White

What do you say if someone says there's no way I'm going to get hired? There's just so much age discrimination out there.

Fawn Germer

Then you're not going to get hired. I mean, come on. I learned that lesson when I was young, and I went to River Country. Disney used to have the first water park, and there was this T bar. And if I kept watching people and they would get on the T bar, and it would go down this line, and then they reached the end and then jump in the water. And I kept saying to myself; I'm never going to be able to do that. I'm never going to be able to do that. And then the minute I got on that thing and left the platform, I lost it, let go, fell in the water. But of course, I fell in the water because I thought I couldn't do it. The next time I said I can do this, they all did it. And then I went easily. So if you think that's the case, it's the case. Yes, there are definite age discrimination issues. We can't pretend that they're not. But usually, those issues are magnified because there is an assumption that we are not relevant. So if you can say what you are learning today, that you're taking a class on innovation at MIT, which incidentally, I did, and it was free and it was wonderful. Right. If you're, you can say what you're learning constantly. That's what they want. They want somebody who's an insatiable learner. And if a younger person is interviewing you, don't say, oh, I have a kid your age, or back when I was your age, I was doing whatever. We don't care about your experience anymore. I'm sorry. It's just the way it is. We want to know what you're going to be able to do in the future. And if you try to make it look like you know so much more than the person interviewing you, you're automatically setting yourself up as a threat. So that is how you make age an issue for yourself.

Ken White

So, yeah, great. So so be proactive about it. I do hear sometimes I'll hear someone older say things, wear things, and it screams I am older

Fawn Germer

Right.

Ken White

and out of touch and just wow. Get it together, you know, get it together. And it's not the company's fault. It might be your fault, actually.

Fawn Germer

Well, you know, when and when I start writing that chapter, you know how to de-frump. I looked in the mirror, and I went, well, you're not looking so hot yourself. So we really have to give ourselves a good look in the mirror, not just physically, but that's important, but also in how we are presenting ourselves as professionals because we don't automatically get points for having been there and done that anymore. That can work against us. I think the most important quote in the book came from a millennial who said, if you have thirty years of irrelevant experience and a millennial has three years of relevant experience, the millennial is the expert. And that is the truth.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Fawn Germer, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Businesses and organizations are seeking professionals to lead in our post COVID world. Professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively, and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program. Offered in four formats the full-time, the evening, the online, and the executive MBA. Check us out online to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Fawn Germer. Thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White. Wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 David Jay
David JayEpisode 146: January 15, 2021
The New Email

David Jay

Episode 146: January 15, 2021

The New Email

Imagine a world without email. While that's not likely anytime soon, the way email looks and the way we use it is changing. The days of video email have arrived. Everyone's familiar with the negative aspects of traditional email: It leads to overloaded inboxes, there's too much back-and-forth, writing and replying take up a great deal of our time. But beyond that, email and websites that rely on the written word are "low touch," and the intent is sometimes misinterpreted. David Jay is out to change that. He's the Founder and CEO of Warm Welcome, a company that helps professionals and organizations change the way they use email and the online written word and instead use video to form better relationships with customers and prospective customers - which has a positive effect on the bottom line. He joins us today to discuss the downside of using traditional text, and the upside of replacing it with video.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn | Spotify

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • How does Warm Welcome help a business stand out
  • What led to the creation of Warm Welcome
  • How does video make the customer interaction more personable
  • What has been the response to replacing email with video
  • What is a video signature
  • What are the advantages of a video business card
  • What is the future of email
  • How should a professional who dislikes seeing themselves on screen embrace video
Transcript

David Jay: The New Email TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Imagine a world without email. Well, that's not likely anytime soon. The way email looks and the way we use it is changing. The days of video email have arrived. Everyone's familiar with the negative aspects of traditional email. It leads to overloaded inboxes. There's too much back and forth. Writing and replying take up a great deal of our time. But beyond that, email and websites that rely on the written word are low touch, and the intent is sometimes misinterpreted. Well, David Jay is out to change that. He's the founder and CEO of Warm Welcome, a company that helps professionals and organizations change the way they use email and the online written word and instead use video to form better relationships with customers and prospective customers, which has a positive effect on the bottom line. He joins us on the podcast today to discuss the downside of using traditional text and the upside of replacing it with video. Here's our conversation with David Jay, Founder, and CEO of Warm Welcome.

Ken White

David, thanks very much for joining us. It's nice to see you. Thanks for sharing your time with us.

David Jay

Great to be here, Ken. Thanks for having me.

Ken White

And you're, of course, I'm in Williamsburg, Virginia, and you're totally on the other opposite end of the country in beautiful Oregon, right?

David Jay

Yeah, Bend, Oregon. So we're kind of this little island out in the middle of the desert. It's not as rainy as Portland, and yeah, we love it.

Ken White

Yeah, nice. Again, thanks for joining us. When when you explain warm welcome to people. How do you explain it? What do you tell them?

David Jay

Well, the way that we talk about it is, and you know this, people have a really difficult time standing out in their business. You start a business, whether it's a service business or a software business. And the struggle is always like kind of getting recognized and standing out from everyone else, you know, that's in your market. And so, what we try and do is help businesses stand out by transitioning from the boring text that most businesses communicate into personal video. So, just like we're on video now, you know, it really helps businesses stand out, and it helps them build better relationships. And, of course, we all know relationships lead to revenue. So that's what we do, is we try to connect those dots and help people transition from kind of an old archaic way of communicating to a new, more modern way.

Ken White

Where did the idea for warm welcome originate? Do you remember?

David Jay

Yeah. Oh, I sure do. Actually, it was right in this little office. I had a friend come over. Eric Knopf is his name. He has a company called Webconnex. And I was showing him some other video technology that we were building. And he said I want to use that to send personal video emails to all of our customers and just thank them for being our customers. I was like, that is a really cool idea. I was like, I'm going to steal that, and I'm just going to make a whole business around it. And so he's like, do it. He's like, just make sure I get the first free account. And so he did, and he uses it in his business now. He has like five accounts now for all his different companies. But yeah, it's neat. People always kind of iterate and come up with better ideas than my ideas. So I try to listen to them and change what we're doing to fit what they want.

Ken White

Yeah. And it's obviously working. It's so interesting that the business it's part technology, it's part communication, it's part email, it's part relationships, part bottom line. How do you see it when you think about it?

David Jay

Yeah, it's a very holistic business, and that's the way that we wanted to approach it. You know, in a new sort of space like this, a lot of companies will tackle things tactically. Right? They'll take on a piece of the pie. So they'll do like video emails, and people will be like, oh, I want to send video emails, I'll go to this company or that company. And so that's where we started. But then we said, well, gosh, if video emails are effective, then wouldn't applying video to just about every point in the customer experience be effective. And so a video business card or a video bubble on your website or a video email signature or video embedded in your website that someone can engage with and send a video back. And so we thought, gosh, let's just connect all those dots and create a nice, consistent client experience through personal video rather than just kind of taking on one piece of the pie. And so that's what we've done. And it's been a really fun switch. We've been surprised how much we've enjoyed it because of the personal connection. And it's like, how many support tickets do you get or how many emails do you respond to every day? And after a while, they all start to feel the same. And it's easy to not see your customers as people anymore, but to just see them as another, you know, support chat or another email or another, you know, just words on a webpage. And when you change it to video, and you can see someone's face and hear their voice, you're like, wow, that's another human, another person on the other side of this that I get to engage with, and business gets to bring us together. And so it's really brought a lot of passion to our company.

Ken White

It is interesting just to look at your website. It's a very as a visitor; it's a very different experience from another website. I there was hardly any text on there.

David Jay

Yeah.

Ken White

I was watching videos. Yeah. And of course, we like to watch videos as human beings anymore. It seems like it's the thing we do these days, you know. Yeah. What about results? What have you heard from people using it, your clients? What do they what's the reaction from them and those receiving videos from them?

David Jay

Oh, the response rate and the open rate on these is just, I mean, it's night and day. It's like 10x, you know, we used to send, you know, just mass marketing emails, and you get, you know, 20 percent open rate and then one percent, two percent click through rate on them. And now we're getting 90 plus percent open rate and almost a hundred percent response rate on them. And I think the reason one is it's very new, and not very many people are sending these videos out yet. But the other reason is because you recognize that it's a real person on the other end of the line if you will. And so it would be like if we met up on the street or we met up at a coffee shop and I, I engaged you. I said something to you. I said, hey, Ken, what do you think about this? Like, it would be very odd and awkward for you not to respond. Right.

Ken White

Yeah.

David Jay

But yet we feel completely okay not responding to a text email or not responding to some, you know, old form of communication, but a video, you know, where the person is engaging you saying, hey, Ken, I was thinking about you the other day. You know, I was wondering if this would be helpful for your business. So I wanted to send it along right. For you to not watch that video or not respond to that. It starts to feel a little bit odd. Right? So

Ken White

Absolutely.

David Jay

everyone responds now because it's human to human communication again, rather than text to human.

Ken White

Right. Interesting. Let's talk about some of the features. For example, a video signature. What is that?

David Jay

Yeah, so when we started with video email, one thing we found is the people who were very proactive, more sales types, marketing type people, they would go, and they would ground and pound on these things, and they were like having tons of success with them. But there's another type of person that isn't going to be as proactive with it but still wants to personalize all of their communication, all of their emails. So we said, well, when you get an email, you see a bunch of text, right. So it doesn't stand out. And so people just trash it or don't respond to it. Well, what if we could personalize every single email that somebody sent out without them having to do something every single time? And so we said, well, shoot, let's take it. You know, let's take the signature portion of the email, you know, the part that's just auto included in there. And personalize it. Let's add a smile and a wave to it just like that. And if you just do it one time, right, you record a little video. Hey, I'm David. This is my video email signature. Feel free to send me a video back or send me a text message back or email me back, whatever you want. But now every email I send has my smile, has my wave, and as humans, those are trust-building tools, right. And so if somebody sees me and they see me smiling at them, that communicates to them that I like them and that we're friends. And immediately, you start the conversation off. You start the relationship off on a better foot than just a big old page of words.

Ken White

Yeah. And yeah. And all those things we can't do in text we can do in video. Yeah. That's so interesting.

David Jay

We'll continue our discussion with David Jay, CEO of Warm Welcome, in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The post-COVID world will require new skills and new approaches. And those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different formats, including the full-time, the evening, the online, and the executive. All taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty, the William & Mary MBA, will prepare you to succeed in our new world. Check out the MBA programs at William & Mary today. Now back to our conversation with David Jay, CEO of Warm Welcome.

Ken White

I assume the video business card is quite similar.

David Jay

Yeah, very similar. You know, the video business card was another thing that we thought, you know, hey, everyone has business cards these days. But there's so many limitations to a paper business card. One is you just give it to one person, and that person usually throws it away. That's the downside of it. And so it doesn't scale at all. But two, you can only communicate as much as you can cram on this little business card. Right. And it can't be shared in a digital environment. There's like so many things wrong with it. And yet, people still do. You get a promotion? Guess what happens to all your old business cards? Trash. So a video business card. Now, when I share it with you, you can share it on with a thousand other people, and there's no extra cost to anybody. Right. So there's a scalability factor, a marketing factor to this business card. You can also communicate so much more in a video business card than a paper business card. The last one, which is really fun, is you can actually communicate through it. A paper business card like you still have to go and send the email or go and do something. A video business card, they can click and send a video right back. They can send an audio message back. They can send text back. And so it's a really nice like container and delivery mechanism for a person rather than a piece of paper.

Ken White

What do you think about the future of email and the way we're communicating? Do you see video? What do you think about it? Yeah. Where do you see it going?

David Jay

Well, I think we're on, you know, maybe a thousand-year shift, certainly a six hundred year shift in the way people communicate. You know, six hundred years ago is when the printing press came out, and the printing press was this revolutionary thing because it was one of the first things in the world that scaled. And so we all became obsessed, humans became obsessed with the written word because it was the first thing in the world that you could do one time and replicate a million times. And so, for the past six hundred years, almost all of our communication has been geared towards text or written communication. Right. And you've got Post-it notes. You've got text messages. You've got emails. You have spiral notebooks, leather-bound notebooks, bound books. We have so many ways to communicate with text-based communication. But the problem is the text-based communication is a terrible way for humans to communicate. I mean, look at Facebook, look at Twitter, like are these environments that people are leaving happier and better? No, they're terrible.

Ken White

Yeah.

David Jay

And it's you know, you say something, you type something, I should say. And people read it in a negative slant. Right. Almost all written communication is read and judged in a negative state, whereas video is the opposite. And so, in the last 10 or 20 years, we've had the Internet and video come together and create the opportunity for a much better way for humans to communicate at scale than we've ever had in human history. And so it's a it's an exciting time, and there's going to be a million iterations of it. And so

Ken White

Right.

David Jay

that's why we're not a competitive company or Blue Ocean Company because there's going to be a million services just like cars. And that's great because it makes the world better. Like when people start communicating as humans again, the world a better place. That's, you know, sounds cliched, and I'm sorry for that. But it's true.

Ken White

No, and I get it. And as one who loves video and loves audio, this is exciting to me that hopefully, we're going this way. But one of the things I've learned when many executives reach out to me or many of our students and say, I don't like Zoom, I don't, I don't like teams, I don't want to see myself. I'm so uncomfortable on video. What do you say to the professional who feels that way but probably knows they should be embracing video?

David Jay

Yeah. So, again, it's kind of a tactical question, right? And they're thinking about the technique. They're thinking about the medium that they're communicating in. And it is a little bit different. And I think the video communication is young, right? It's in its teens. It's a teenager's awkward. It's uncomfortable. Right. But over time, it's going to mature. And some of the things that I think we're changing already is seeing our self on video, like the tendency when there's a video up on the screen is to look at our self.

Ken White

Right. Absolutely.

David Jay

Right. When we're talking to somebody at a coffee shop like we don't hold a mirror up and look in the mirror the whole time. Right. And so when we're communicating one, we should get ourselves off the screen, first of all, like, we don't need to see ourselves. But the second thing is the entire goal or the hope in a conversation is that we're adding some sort of value or contributing something to the other person. And when that's our focus, it gets off of our self. How do I look? How do I sound? Like all these self things that are terrible, like but that's not what we want to think about, as we're in a relationship with somebody, we want to be thinking about the other person. And so the technical, tactical things of get your own video off the screen, stop looking about yourself, stop thinking about yourself, start thinking about how to add value to the other person. And when you do that, you're able to get beyond some of those insecurities that we have.

Ken White

That's our conversation with David Jay. And that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Businesses and organizations are seeking professionals to lead in the post-COVID world. Professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively, and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and much more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats the full-time, the evening, the online, and the executive MBA. Check us out online to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest David Jay, CEO of Warm Welcome, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Jen Lee
Jen LeeEpisode 145: January 1, 2021
Managing Your Finances in 2021

Jen Lee

Episode 145: January 1, 2021

Managing Your Finances in 2021

There's no doubt the pandemic has had a significant economic impact on the people of the United States, and the world. Since March, many individuals and families have experienced a reduction in employment, and a loss of income. People of all ages have been affected. The news isn't all bad, though. For example, in the second quarter of 2020 credit card balances in the U.S. declined considerably. The percentage of delinquent loans also declined in most consumer debt markets. And while you can't dictate what the financial picture will look like in the new year, you can be a good steward of your money by embracing quality personal finance principles. Jen Lee is an attorney who helps her clients with debt and credit strategy. She joins us today with tips for everyone - from the young professional, to the retiree, to everyone in-between. She'll fill us in on savings, 401(k)s, managing debt, and the elephant in the room.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn | Spotify

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • How did Jen get into debt and credit strategy
  • What advice does Jen have for younger people regarding money and savings
  • Why should on start a 401(k) as early as possible
  • The importance of having a budget
  • How should one handle serious debt
  • What does Jen consider the "elephant in the room"
  • How can one tell what financial services are a scam and which ones are legitimate
  • How do you improve your credit score
  • How much of a percentage of one's income should they spend on housing
  • Why should someone get life insurance
  • When should one use a financial wellness program
Transcript

Jen Lee: Managing Your Finances in 2021 TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Well, there's no doubt the pandemic has had a significant economic impact on the people of the United States and the world. Since March, many individuals and families have experienced a reduction in employment and a loss of income. People of all ages have been affected. The news isn't all bad, though. For example, in the second quarter of twenty-twenty, credit card balances in the U.S. declined considerably. The percentage of delinquent loans also declined in most consumer debt markets. And while you can't dictate what the financial picture will look like in the New Year, you can be a good steward of your money by embracing quality personal finance principles. Jen Lee is an attorney who helps her clients with debt and credit strategy. She joins us on the podcast today with tips for everyone from the young professional to the retiree to everyone in between. She'll fill us in on savings, 401k's, managing debt, and the elephant in the room. Here's our conversation with Jen Lee of Jen Lee Law.

Ken White

Jen, thanks so very much for joining us and sharing your time and your expertise with us. Nice to see you.

Jen Lee

Nice to see you, too, Ken. Thanks for having me.

Ken White

Debt and credit strategy. How did you get into that? How did you choose this?

Jen Lee

So debt and credit strategy came about because I started out in the legal world as a bankruptcy attorney. And as I was talking to people, I was realizing that people need help way before they get to bankruptcy. And there were so many people that I could help avoid bankruptcy if they understood how debt and credit actually works in the real world. So then I made up a totally new name for it. And we call it debt and credit strategy instead of bankruptcy, which sounds so much more soft and cuddly.

Ken White

Yeah, it does. It sounds quite human, doesn't it?

Jen Lee

Yes.

Ken White

You know, we normally think I normally think when it comes to personal finance of younger people, and as we talk, we'll find out that's not the case. But why don't we start there? When you think of younger people, maybe they're in their first job. They're just sort of starting their new career. What kind of advice do you have for them regarding their money and savings?

Jen Lee

So if I were going back to when I was twenty-two and my first job, what I would tell myself is if you have student loans, have a plan for them, whether you're on a forgiveness track or you are on some type of payment plan, have a plan for them, because so many people get 10, 15 years down the road and find out that they could have gotten portions forgiven or they could have done something. And now the balance has grown. So my first piece of advice is always have a plan for your student loans and try to pay them off if you can. Don't jump into the forgiveness if you don't have to. And the second piece of advice is start a 401k or a retirement the day that you start your first job. So they are always saving for retirement cause compound interest when you're that young, it makes great returns in the future.

Ken White

I remember being that age and saying I can't afford to save for retirement. I'll do that later. That's the kiss of death, isn't it?

Jen Lee

Yes.

Ken White

How do you convince somebody? How do you say it's so worth it to do this? Any amount, right?

Jen Lee

Any amount. It can be 50 dollars; it could be one hundred dollars at one percent. And if your employer matches, you should always contribute up to your employer match. But having a budget, and that's another go-to piece of advice too, is having a budget so that you can work out where that money can come from each month. It's really important to have a plan. So I think if you have the plan for the student loan and you have a plan for your budget and a plan for retirement, some of those I can't afford its become possible. So but even a small amount, as little as possible, but just put something into retirement so that it's always growing for you and don't take it out when you switch jobs, don't take it out.

Ken White

It is amazing. It is truly amazing how it grows as it's magic. 2020 has been rough, and many people, as we know, that seem to have their bills are larger than their paychecks. Many people facing that right now. What kind of advice do you have for them?

Jen Lee

So when COVID first hit back in March, and all the shutdowns started, depending on where you're at in the country, it started earlier than others. I did daily webinars, and I told people you should write down all of your bills, all of your debts and see what your status is first and then make phone calls and communicate. So if you can't pay your credit cards because your paycheck has shrunk, your laid-off call and communicate with your lenders, with your creditors, because a lot of the CARES Act rules and things that they're allowed to do, they have to know that you're affected by COVID. And so my first step is for everyone write down what you have and what has to be paid to keep your four walls and your food going, necessary things, and then figure out from there what you can pay and what you can't pay. At some point, it becomes you have to do larger triage. But at the beginning, just make sure you write everything down so that you know what you have to pay and what you should pay versus what can wait and what you can negotiate on.

Ken White

And when someone does contact, say, a credit card company, is there a way to possibly negotiate what's owed or the or the interest?

Jen Lee

There are. So most of the time with COVID, it's they're just putting you into a forbearance. They may be freezing your interest. They may not be, but they're usually putting in a forbearance. You can often negotiate the interest rates down to zero or one percent or something very low, but they'll usually cut your credit line so that you won't have access to that credit line anymore. So you have to be a little careful with that. But yes, there are ways to negotiate and come up with payment plans so that they're not reporting you late on your credit or so that you're not getting sent to collection in the middle of this whole pandemic.

Ken White

What about those in serious debt? I mean, it's looking bad, and the money's not coming in. What do you advise them to do?

Jen Lee

Talk to someone who could let you know what your options are there people who come to me for bankruptcy or come to you with serious debt? We're looking to see is there a way to budget out? Is there a way to consolidate? Is their debt settlement? Is that an option that we should look at? And then start looking at bankruptcy options. What I find with bankruptcy and this is the B I call it the B-word because. People are so scared of it. They think that the world's going to end. Is that almost every misconception people have about bankruptcy is what I hear as I can't do that. And so at least have someone explain to you what your future looks like and how to use legal options as tools versus thinking that it's the end of the world. Some of it's mindset. There's a lot of mindset issues.

Ken White

Yeah, well, it's funny when you say bankruptcy. It makes me think of what you call the elephant in the room, which is clever. Please share that with us. What is that?

Jen Lee

Sure. So as I was starting out talking to people, we talked about debt and credit strategy. I found that the elephant in the room was that more than 70 percent of Americans have a debt or credit problem of some sort. And that was before COVID. And we all go on to Facebook, and we talk to our friends. And no one talks about this elephant in the room that we all have these debt and credit problems. So you think you're alone? It's very isolating, and it makes you think feel like you're almost an idiot because you can't figure these things out. When everyone around you is flopping around the same elephants that are around. And so I tell people all the time, it's very savvy for you to find out what your options are before it gets to the point of no return. And you'd be really surprised at the number of people around you who have the exact same debt issues that you do.

Ken White

It may explain all of the people, all of the mail landing in people's mailboxes right now, all this stuff for new mortgage rates, and so forth. You know, that's a lot to handle. How do you determine what's legitimate, what's not, what you should pursue, and what maybe you shouldn't?

Jen Lee

So that's a really good question because I deal every day with the scams, and what things aren't always great options. Mortgage refinancing is huge right now because of the interest rates being so low. That's unprecedented how low they are. And if anyone who grew up in the 80s and 90s remember what interest rates were like, it's a very different world these days.

Ken White

Yeah.

Jen Lee

So mortgage refinancing, most of those offers, generally you can reach out to the company and get things underwritten, find out what it looks like. I don't worry as much about mortgage refinancing offers unless they're offering something really shady like fifty thousand dollars and closing costs or something crazy. The scammy ones tend to be the debt consolidation, and debt settlement offers that you get. And those are the ones that come in the mail. And they'll say you can resolve all your debt for five hundred dollars a month for forty-eight months. Give us a call. And when you call into those places, usually you don't qualify for consolidation because, by the time you get to the point where you have enough debt, where you would need to consolidate, your credit score has suffered, and you don't qualify for consolidation loans. So they pass you on to their debt settlement company, and then they start talking you through this great program that they have that they can settle all your debts, four years of payments, and then you'll be debt-free. And it doesn't that sound great? Well, they don't tell you that your credit score does worse under debt settlement than it does under bankruptcy. First of all, it will destroy your credit. They don't tell you that you'll get sued in most states if you do debt settlement because the debts don't stop. They just try to sell them all, and they don't give you all the downsides of them. So I always tell people, if you're calling in for a free consultation and it's not a nonprofit consumer credit type organization, they're going to be selling you something, and likely you are the product at that point. So that's how I tell people to watch out for scams is. If you're calling in for a free consultation for something that sounds too good to be true, find out what the downsides are.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Jen Lee of Jen Lee Law in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The post COVID world will require new skills and new approaches. Those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different formats, including the full-time, the evening, the online, and the executive. All taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty, the William & Mary MBA, will prepare you to succeed in our post COVID world. Check out the MBA programs at William & Mary today. Now back to our conversation with Jen Lee of Jen Lee Law

Ken White

You mentioned credit score a couple of times. How does how do people go on improving their credit score?

Jen Lee

So credit scores are there difficult because you can have three hundred credit scores at any given time? Depends on who's running it, what bureau it's through, different types of scoring for mortgage or cars. So your credit score can be vastly different. Even the same day of the year, credit score, repair, or credit repair is a very scammy industry. I refer to it as credit rebuilding. So if you need to rebuild your credit, first of all, you should run your credit and find out what's on there because a lot of people are scared to run their credit and dispute things that are incorrect. Also, making sure that your balances are lower than about 30 percent of your limit is one of the biggest reasons people's credit scores are low. So if you have a card that's maxed out, that will significantly impact your credit score. So credit scores are one of those things that's a mystery out there. No one releases exactly what goes on, but your balances and making payments on time are the two top things that you can do to improve your score.

Ken White

You know, we hear a lot of especially 20 somethings moving back home with parents, can't afford rent, can't afford to buy what's a good percentage of income that you should be spending on housing? Is there a limit you like?

Jen Lee

So this goes all over the place. I've seen recommendations. And if you do the mortgage underwriting, they'll sometimes go up to like 40 percent of your your your gross income to housing, which I think is a huge number that shouldn't be used. But I, I like about 20 percent of gross income for housing, and it depends on where you live too. I live in California. I have family in North Dakota. So I see a very big difference in cost of living.

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Jen Lee

And I do see people in especially the Bay Area of California, Los Angeles, where housing is more than that percentage. But that's just about a factor of the cost of living of the area. But I would say about 20 percent of gross income is what I feel comfortable at.

Ken White

What do you tell people about life insurance in these times? More important than it was pre-COVID, less important?

Jen Lee

I think it's more important. I always think life insurance is important. My background before law school was in life insurance underwriting. And so I find that a lot of my clients that I get for bankruptcy would have benefited if the person that they loved who passed away had life insurance. So I think life insurance is very important. We also don't know what COVID is going to do to insurability if they're going to be long term effects if it's going to cost people to be uninsurable. So I think everyone should have some type of life insurance. The amount varies greatly depending on what you need to protect and what you have for family and that kind of thing. I think it's good for everyone.

Ken White

What are you advising people of all ages in terms of their personal vehicles, rent, lease, buy, cash, payments? What do you think?

Jen Lee

I have a really good lawyer answer. It depends.

Ken White

Of course.

Jen Lee

Cash cars, if you can buy a cash car, that's usually the most economical thing that the first thing that personal finance people will tell you. I'm a little bit more flexible on that. I think if you get a good deal to buy something newer and is going to last for a while and have a low-interest rate, then buying as reasonable. Leasing, if you're a business owner, there are all kinds of things you can do with car leases. So I'm not opposed. I am not a you can never lease a car because it doesn't make sense to rent a vehicle, or you should always buy a cash car. But please watch the amount of money that you're spending each month on a car payment because I've seen some pretty ridiculous car payments that were more than rent. So I would tend to error on the make sure it fits your budget more than buying, leasing, cash, loan that kind of thing.

Ken White

Yeah. As as we head into this, this New Year, what kind of overall advice do you have for not just your clients and our listeners, but for everyone when it comes to their personal finances moving forward in this new year?

Jen Lee

I would say for personal finance goals for anyone is know what you have, know what's in your portfolio of debt and what's in your portfolio of assets. It's scary to look at, and I find I do a lot of debt therapy when we're talking through, trying to figure out what exactly you have and what your plan is for it. It's really easy to put it off to the side and say, I don't want to look at that. I don't want to touch that. I don't want to think about it because it hurts. And so, some good personal finance goals are just to sit down and have a plan. You have to find something that works with you and your family. Some couples are really good about talking about finances. I would say 70 percent of couples are not good at talking about finances. And so you have to find something, a system that works for you and use that system. Don't just let it go off to the wayside. Ignoring the problem is probably what contributes to the most stress. The other thing I'm seeing a lot of is employers, those financial wellness programs. Financial wellness is great. If your already in a good financial place. It's a proactive step to take is financial wellness. Most of the time, I see people who don't benefit for financial wellness programs because they can't even get to a place where knowing how to budget and knowing what their 401K options are are steps they can even take. So I find that financial wellness programs are missing the mark needed.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Jen Lee, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Businesses and organizations are seeking professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively, and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program. Offered in four formats, the full-time, the evening, the online, and the executive. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest Jen Lee, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White, wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Phillip Sun
Phillip SunEpisode 144: December 17, 2020
Changing the Face of Hollywood

Phillip Sun

Episode 144: December 17, 2020

Changing the Face of Hollywood

If you like television and movies, you're familiar with Michael B. Jordan, Donald Glover, Taraji P. Henson, and Idris Elba. They're among the biggest actors in the business. They're also people of color who are represented by a new management firm called M88 - an organization that represents actors, directors, writers, and producers of color, and focuses on inclusive storytelling. One of the two men who created M88 is Phillip Sun, a William & Mary graduate who - after earning his Bachelor's Degree in International Relations - went to Los Angeles. He started as a gofer on a movie set, then got a job in the mail room at the William Morris Agency where he later become a talent agent, and eventually the company's first Asian American male partner. Now he's changing the face of Hollywood by approaching diversity, inclusion, culture, and storytelling in a new way. He joins us today to discuss his journey from William & Mary student to popular culture influencer.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn | Spotify

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • How did Phillip get his start on a Hollywood set
  • Why did Phillip get a job at William Morris
  • What are the responsibilities of a Hollywood agent
  • How is an agent like a CEO
  • Why did Phillip start M88
  • What was the industry reaction to M88
  • Where does Phillip feel his role in pop culture is
  • How is M88 an innovative representation firm
Transcript

Phillip Sun - Changing the face of Hollywood TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. If you like television and movies, you're familiar with Michael B. Jordan, Donald Glover, Taraji P. Henson, and Idris Elba. They're among the biggest actors in the business. They're also people of color who are represented by a new management firm called M88, an organization that represents actors, directors, writers, and producers of color and focuses on inclusive storytelling. One of the two men who created M88 is Phillip Sun, a William & Mary graduate, who, after earning his bachelor's degree in international relations, went to Los Angeles. He started as a gofer on a movie set, then got a job in the mailroom at the William Morris Agency, where he later became a talent agent and eventually the company's first Asian-American male partner. Now he's changing the face of Hollywood by approaching diversity, inclusion, culture, and storytelling in a new way. He joins us today to discuss his journey from William & Mary student to popular culture influencer. Here's our conversation with Phillip Sun of M88.

Ken White

Phillip, it's great to see you. Thanks for sharing your time with us today. How are you?

Phillip Sun

I'm doing well. Thanks for having me. This is a this full circle for me to come back to a William & Mary podcast. So I

Ken White

No doubt. That's great. Thank you. Yeah. We're recording in December. You and I were just talking about the weather in Los Angeles versus the weather in Williamsburg. So a little bit different. Of course.

Phillip Sun

About 40 degrees different.

Ken White

Yeah.

Phillip Sun

Yeah, a little bit.

Ken White

So what an interesting story. You're this international relations major from William & Mary. And so many I.R. majors go up to Washington, D.C., Capitol Hill and make their mark. You turned left and ended up on the West Coast in the entertainment industry. How did what was the first step? What was that first job you had that got you on that path?

Phillip Sun

It is a sharp left. The plan was to go to D.C. Senator Dick Lugar was a fraternity brother. So a lot of the Betas had opportunities to go up to D.C. just through our education, but also connections. So the trip to California was really just to scratch an itch that I had about L.A. It always been intrigued by celebrity and film and television content. So when I got the chance to work as a P.A., which is a production assistant on my brother's film that he was co-financing, I just jumped at the opportunity. And of course, it was for my brother, so I worked for free, but I learned the ins and outs of being on set, and as Hollywood works, it's just I met the star of the film, Parker Posey, who's a wonderful actress. The Christopher Guest movies were was her claim to fame. But I worked for her. I was a P.A., and then I got her coffee order, and then I got her the same coffee order the next day. I remembered her order, and she was like, Oh, my God, you remembered like, I can't believe I want you to be my assistant. Like, it's a coffee order. Like I went to William & Mary. I promise you; I'm educated. It's not that hard. But then I was I became I, I got promoted and became her assistant. And then as it kind of works in this world, it's just it's who you meet and then who they know. So before I was going to head home, she asked me to work for Kerry Barden, who was in casting then. So I worked for him. He asked me to work for Hans Canosa, who was a director and was a director's assistant. Then I went back to casting for Kerry Barden. And I got to meet Spielberg in that sense or in that in that job. And then before I left to head back, they all agreed that I should try the agencies because it's kind of like lobbying, right? It's like

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Phillip Sun

You gotta be good at salesmanship. And the skill set is very similar, actually. So why not? I'm here. Right. So I interviewed at all the mailroom positions, luckily I got offers from all of them and then my Chinese immigrant family, my parents wouldn't let me stay unless they could read about the institution. So I ended up at William Morris Agency, which is the most historic agency of all of them because they could read about the mailroom and people who had become

Ken White

Sure.

Phillip Sun

successful from it and all the things that that Chinese parents need. And also, well, my brother and I sold it as the Harvard of agencies. So Harvard has a certain ring to it. And my brother went there, so I landed there and then I started to move my way up from the mailroom.

Ken White

So what was it early on in your career that made you say, this is where I'm supposed to be? This really lights my fire.

Phillip Sun

Not much. I think it was more of this is so interesting and different compared to Virginia. And I wasn't economically able to travel abroad and enjoy, you know, traveling after college. I had to get to work. So this was an experience for me. It was just like, oh, let's see how far I can take it. Oh, definitely a little bit of the Southern kind of competitiveness. Frat boy competitiveness came out, and it was like, look, I'm going to swing for the fences here and see what a southern Virginia kid can do here. And then also the William & Mary kind of background. It's just like we get to learn so many different things at a liberal arts school, like, you kind of just have to move and learn quickly, which you were taught to do at the college. So it kind of worked in my favor.

Ken White

So you were an agent. What did that entail? What kind of work was that?

Phillip Sun

Yeah, I was an agent after I trained for like three years. So the work of an agent is purely to represent your client and build out their brand. Right. So reading scripts, putting together lists of directors, producers, people that they should be working with, strategizing alongside them and senior agents about how do you take someone from T.V. show or small movie and build them to the grand stage, if you will. So that is the job in a nutshell, like a very, very, like quick overview. You know, that job evolved also into what I like to say is like a CEO position. Right? You get to be the CEO of a lot of businesses. That resonated with me more because I was still learning the arts very quickly. I didn't grow up watching movies and television. Like the kids in L.A. did. We were raised differently. And we at the college, you didn't really learn about fine arts and such unless you took classes on it. So kind of just I knew I could learn business because of the classes I had taken at the college. Right. So I was like, okay, this is economics. This is these are these things. That's how I'm divvying it up in my head. But the CEO position made more sense to me because it was like, okay, cool. So you get to partner with x movie star. How are you going to build the business? It's not just arts. It's obviously the fuel. But like, there's how do you brand them? How do you get into Silicon Valley? How do you get into investments? How do you get in like kind of bringing it back to my strength and skill set? But that's kind of how my job has evolved.

Ken White

And then the job to M88. How did it happen? How did you get there?

Phillip Sun

That was a lot. I mean, it was, you know, I loved the agency that I was working at. But I think with the birth of my son, which was last December, which is crazy, it's almost been a year and then COVID where everything just stopped. Like I was, I could take a second to breathe, and no business was happening. Right, like the world shut down.

Ken White

Yes.

Phillip Sun

And I think for the first time in 15 years, the perspective of being a new father, plus the perspective of given to me of through time to think right. And then the unfortunate tragedy of George Floyd, kind of what I had built my career on, which is fighting for people of color, voices of color, voices from underrepresented communities. It just kind of was a calling of I think I've done everything I can do at the Agency for Diversity and Inclusion, meaning that no matter what I did there, you know, diversity would be a program or an afterthought or a reaction. It was just a constant push. Right, because you're kind of going up against the grain of any corporation. It's like not built on diversity and inclusion. It's just not anything built. Less or more than five years ago, probably isn't built on it.

Ken White

Right.

Phillip Sun

So wanted to take my skillset and build a management firm, a representation firm. Partner up with my mentor, Charles King, who had started Macro, which is a production company studio that pushes out multicultural content as well, start the representation arm and like he had started a smaller version of it, but kind of supercharge it if you will and push out the mission of making sure that the world sees the content of the global majority told by the global majority and making sure that the representation reflects what they want out of the industry. And the opportunity just seemed to be perfect. And quite frankly, because of the Zoom world, a part of the reason I was staying at the agency is like I have so many good friends there, but like when you don't see them day to day, right, the emotional connection of people dissipates. And so you just start making decisions based on business.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Phillip Sun of M88 in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The post-COVID world will require new skills and new approaches. Those skills and approaches are taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different formats, including the full-time, the evening, the online, and the executive, all taught by our top-ranked MBA faculty. The William & Mary MBA will prepare you to succeed in our new world. Check out the MBA programs at William & Mary today. Now back to our conversation with Phillip Sun of M88.

Ken White

What was the reaction of folks in the industry, whether it's studios, production houses, actors, writers, what was the reaction?

Phillip Sun

I think we were received very well. I think there is a strong appetite for the systems that have been established to change. I think it's just a unique opportunity where minorities in representation aren't really a thing until recently. Right. Like our parents or our immigrant parents were like, go be a doctor, go be an attorney, go be something stable. That can give you a good, stable economic life and minimal risk. Arts is not that. Right. So but there is more minorities are like, okay, there is a business in the arts. Right. There is something that we can find there. And I think my generation is the first generation where you see more people coming through. And I was just oddly situated to be senior enough and blessed enough to have a client base that was strong enough to start this venture with Charles. And it was received so well because I think two-fold one. The minority community obviously is cheering for it, right? They want something fresh. They want a minority-owned business minority-led business to be successful because it represents them. Right. It gave them kind of like a new home if you will. I think the again, the industry, the studios, the production companies, which are predominantly led by older white men, some of them want help and need help and need kind of like a go-to right. Like so, it's kind of simplifying it for people. Like you can come here like, you know the client, you know me, you know Charles, you know the people there. And then there are some people who I'm sure are cheering for it in publicly and not cheering for from behind because it's, you know, it's a tricky subject matter.

Ken White

Yeah.

Phillip Sun

But overall received very well.

Ken White

I mean, you're influencing popular culture. I mean, that's how a lot of people learn about diversity.

Phillip Sun

My clients are influencing popular culture. I am just trying to help.

Ken White

You're assisting them. That's really that's really something. I mean, that's an influence on people that can really touch everyone. Have you thought much about that?

Phillip Sun

I did. I did. When I was coming up about what the opportunity of a representative with a cause could be. Right. Because it's very much like politics, right. When you're lobbying or when you're in D.C., you're pushing for policy. We all know through government and watching television and just knowing how government works, it takes forever to get something through because of the politics. You're actually much more able to send a message in Hollywood. Right, because a lot of the a lot of my clients, everything that they do has some sort of social relevance or message. And they use their strength of their brand to push things forward. Policy forward right. But you're in a very liberal town here. Right. So they're not as much politics to get in the way of it. Right. It's just about can you are you lucky enough to work with the people that have like minded mission aligned with you, and can we influence the world that way? So, again, I thought about it in the way that, like, should I be in D.C. should be here, like, what should I be doing? It's the same skill set, but there's power in both coasts if you will. And that's I just chose my coast.

Ken White

To outsiders, to fans, you know, people who love movies and television and the arts. This sounds extremely innovative. Is it in your field what you're doing? I mean, it's different for sure.

Phillip Sun

I think it's it's different. Well, look, we're the first, I believe we're the first minority black-owned minority-led representation firm. There's certainly no other representation firm led by people that look like us. And our though we're small, we're mighty so far, and we're growing intentionally. But our manager and assistant base is one hundred percent women, people of color. Our client base is majority women, people of color. It will remain so. I think that's the uniqueness in the innovativeness. Right. You're giving a traditional system of representation a new look. And the look is kind of the look of the new global majority. And look, it's we all know about institutions, right. It's like William & Mary. When the culture is set early on, you know what it's going to grow with the business, the college, wherever. We're trying to set the culture early on in the mission early on so that it grows and thrives but will always be the center point. And that's the innovative, I guess, avenue.

Ken White

Yeah. There was something I read in the L.A. Times; one of the actors said that M88 produces great work that has cultural integrity.

Phillip Sun

We try to.

Ken White

What does that mean to you? Yeah.

Phillip Sun

Well, our sister company Macro is actually the one who produces. Right. So they are exactly that. Whether it's fences, whether it's sorry to bother you, whether they are, they're tapped into the culture, and they are very hyper-vigilant about making sure that the stories told are excellent and told by the storytellers that are meant to tell the stories. M88s clients, they certainly are of the same ilk. M88 is a representation firm. Like this is just the industry we watch, right. We we're representatives our clients can produce in our sister company macro produces. But we always everyone knows the rule is like as a person of color. In any industry, you feel like you have to be that much more excellent, right? You have to be that much more perfect. I think we take that challenge on the clients, the representation firm, and also macro. We embrace it, and we rise to the level of it. Knock on wood. We'll continue to do so. But yeah, I take that as a compliment and an expectation. I just want to make sure that the alumni and also the students at William & Mary know that this is an opportunity and like people built like us and from a background, like the students, we need you out here, all right? Like if you ever think that this is not available to you, that's wrong. Cord Jefferson and I are of the same class. Cord just won an Emmy. I just started a management firm. We're both from William & Mary. So it's like it's there's something about the school and how we're taught that works. So certainly, if we can send the message to the students that we're open for the college's business on this side, just reach out to me.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Phillip Sun of M88, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Businesses and organizations are seeking professionals to lead in the post-COVID world professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively, and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and much more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats the full-time, the evening, the online, and the executive MBA. Check us out online to learn more. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Phillip Sun, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White, wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

More Podcast Episodes

 Kim Foley
Kim FoleyEpisode 143: December 8, 2020
Communicating Effectively in Virtual Meetings

Kim Foley

Episode 143: December 8, 2020

Communicating Effectively in Virtual Meetings

Since the start of the pandemic, our workdays have changed. We're working longer, and attending more meetings. Look at your calendar, you're likely to see a never-ending list of meetings. And most of those meetings are taking place virtually: On Zoom, Teams, WebEx, Skype, and other vehicles. That virtual world requires a particular set of skills. Communicating on camera is different than doing so in a face-to-face environment. If you communicate poorly on video, your brand, credibility, and reputation can be adversely affected. If you embrace video communication, your leadership, presence, and influence can improve. Kim Foley is a communication consultant. She works with Fortune 500 companies and professionals from a variety of sectors helping them communicate more effectively on video. She's the author of "Virtual Meetings with Power and Presence: The Ultimate Guide to Online Meetings." She joins us today to discuss how you can communicate effectively in your virtual meetings.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What are common mistakes people make on video calls
  • Where should one place their laptop while on a video call
  • How important is a good internet connection while on a virtual meeting
  • Where should one look while on a Zoom meeting
  • Why should a professional invest in a good microphone
  • What should you do if you have kids and need to attend a virtual meeting
  • What are the disadvantages of using a virtual background
  • What makes for a distracting background
  • Why should one stand during virtual meetings
Transcript

Kim Foley: Communicating Effectively in Virtual Meetings TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Well, since the start of the pandemic, our workdays have changed. We're working longer and attending more meetings. Look at your calendar. You're likely to see a never-ending list of meetings. And most of those meetings are taking place virtually on Zoom, Teams, WebEx, Skype, and other vehicles. Well, that virtual world requires a particular set of skills. Communicating on camera is different than doing so in a face to face environment. If you communicate poorly on video, your brand, credibility, and reputation can be adversely affected. If you embrace video communication, your leadership, presence, and influence can improve. Kim Foley is a communication consultant. She works with Fortune 500 companies and professionals from a variety of sectors, helping them communicate more effectively on video. She's the author of Virtual Meetings with Power and Presence: The Ultimate Guide to Online Meetings. She joins us today to discuss how you can communicate effectively in your virtual meetings. Here's our conversation with Kim Foley.

Ken White

Kim, thanks so much for sharing your time and your expertise with us. I'm so excited to talk with you. Thanks for being here.

Kim Foley

Oh, I'm so happy to be here.

Ken White

Tell us what you do. You have an interesting job, interesting background. What what are your days like, and what do you do?

Kim Foley

Well, since April, my life has really changed because I pivoted from video production to and media training to teaching people how to do better Zoom meetings. And no matter what platform you're using, we all struggle with the same issues. And believe me, I had never done a Zoom meeting before April. And so, of course, I'd done plenty of face-time meetings, which is really the same thing. But I had to learn the platforms. And so it became very clear to me very quickly that I could no longer train people in my studio, and I had to start doing everything virtually. And the very first time I opened my computer to do this, I realized that the angles too low because my computer's down here and, you know, the shadows were terrible. And I immediately went into video production mode and started fixing things. And in ten minutes, I had something great going on on the screen. But I realized at that moment that other people are probably having a lot of the same issues, except they didn't know the solutions, right.

Ken White

You got it. You got it.  People like you and I who've lived in the video world; we get it, but most people have not lived there. So, yeah, it's a whole new thing. So what are some of the common mistakes you're seeing where people are literally sabotaging their credibility because of things they're doing on Zoom?

Kim Foley

It's just unbelievable. You know, the whole point of this is to make sure that you simulate sitting across the table, having a conversation at a conference, at a meeting, whether it's in person, you want to simulate that. And the only way you can do that is by getting about five or six things right. And so the main things that I see people doing incorrectly are, first of all, they'll open up their computer while it's sitting down low around their waist, and all we see is their chin. We see the ceiling, we'll see the ceiling fan, we'll see recessed lights, whatever. But we're not seeing them eye to eye where it looks like we're really sitting across the table from someone. And so one of the first things I always say to people is figure out a way, whether it's a bunch of Amazon boxes you taped together, it doesn't matter. Get that computer or that tablet or that phone up to eye level. And I don't mean kind of eye level; I mean really eye level. And when you do that, it makes such a difference. And so that's the very first thing I would get people to do. But in my book, what I talk about, the first chapter is getting that Internet connection right. Because let's face it, if you get your framing in your audio and your lighting and everything just right, but you have really poor Internet connection, what's going to happen is you're going to have odd audio. It's going to sound very electronic. It may even cut off altogether. You're going to have freezing, and it ruins the meeting. So any time you have a lot of stalling, sometimes people are kicked completely off the platform because of Internet. So I go into how to maximize your Internet connection, how to reboot your router, and how to close out all your apps and make sure that your bandwidth is really supporting what you're doing, especially if you have an important presentation or meeting. You know, if you're a leader in your organization, you definitely don't want to be the one that's cutting out. You want to be the one setting the example right.

Ken White

Yeah.

Kim Foley

So we got to get that right. So then get that framing perfect so that you're really, truly eye level and then step back a foot, because if you're right up close next to your computer and a lot of people do that because they're having trouble seeing the screen, don't worry about seeing the screen. Where you should be looking is in the eye of the camera, not at the other people on the screen or at yourself. And we're hardwired to do that, as you know, to look at faces. So it's very hard for people to keep that eye contact with that camera because it's a tiny little thing. So there's tricks for that. There's tricks to helping you remember that put a little Post-it behind there and make it very obvious so that your eye is drawn to that space and keep your eyes there if you're doing the talking. So there's a lot of body language that's involved in this. But if you step back, like I see that you are in my meeting here and I'm stepped back, we can actually use our full body language to support our message. We can move our head or shoulders. We can move or shift our weight. We can; it's really fantastic to get more of a chest-up shot going than a shoulder-up shot. And so you've got to back up to do that. And that's when it really looks good. Now, if you are doing that, the other problem is you need to make sure you're using a microphone because the mic in the computer is it's going to be too far away from you to really pick up beautiful sound. So I want you to think about what type of microphone. I use a lavalier microphone that's USB connected into the computer. It's very inexpensive; got it on Amazon. It works great. And it's a very simple thing to do so that you get rich, beautiful sound. So these are, you know, some of the tips that I work on with people. And then, of course, lighting, if you're if you've got overhead lighting, which most people have, you have deep, dark shadows. You may have darkness in the background, and it looks foreboding, sort of like a creepy horror movie. You can't quite see what's back there. We don't want that. We want to make sure that you're lit properly and that your background is lit properly as well. Shouldn't be brighter than you. For instance, I know you've seen people set themselves up or the windows behind them right.

Ken White

Yeah, backlighting.

Kim Foley

Backlighting it's the worst. So they're in darkness, but the background is very bright, and that does not work for people. So, you know, it's important for people to understand the elements. It's not hard to do. And once you get that set up properly one time, you just repeat it so that it's not difficult to take in all the stress out of it by understanding exactly what you need to be doing. And then there's no more anxiety.

Ken White

What I often tell our students is watch the news, watch how anchors communicate right. They're in the box that they got it. They're eye level, and so forth. And I love you said the Post-it note. I have so many colleagues who have those little arrow Post-it notes that they put on each side of the camera

Kim Foley

Yeah.

Ken White

and their computer so that they do, in fact, look at the camera.

Kim Foley

Yeah, and remind you.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Kim Foley in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary's School of Business. There is no better time than right now to pursue your MBA. With businesses and organizations experiencing so much change, they're seeking professionals who can communicate, think strategically, and deal with ambiguity. Skills taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different formats, including the full time, the evening, also known as the Flex Program, the online, and the executive. The William & Mary MBA will prepare you to succeed in our post covid world. Check out the MBA programs at William & Mary today. Now back to our conversation on communicating effectively in virtual meetings with Kim Foley.

Ken White

We're on Zoom or whatever, whatever vehicle all day long, and questions I get are from people saying I'm busy at home, I have kids at home, there's so much going on. What do I do in that meeting? Do I need to appear on camera? Is it appropriate for me to put my photo up there? I know what I say to folks, but what's your advice? If somebody's got an environment where they're a little nervous that something could go wrong in the middle of a meeting?

Kim Foley

Well, I think this is the time to start thinking about where in your house can you have some privacy? I have a client in a very, very large organization who's very high up, and she had to address forty thousand people in a video. And she was calling me in a panic because she has four children. And I said, okay, what we're going to do is we're going to get if you don't have a lock on the door, and she did not. I said, you're going to put a chair at the door and a sign on the door that you will be make sure that there's someone tending to them, and then you're going to make sure that they know you will be out in an hour so that they know you're coming and so they won't keep banging on the door and get that person to wrangle them for that hour because she had to do this out of her bedroom because there literally was no other place for her to do it. So it's a very tricky thing having a lot of people in the background. I don't generally recommend virtual backgrounds because people usually key out unless they're using a green screen and they have adequate processor in their computer. And if you do, like I can do beautiful virtual backgrounds because I have the processor that will support it, and I use a green screen. But generally speaking, I prefer not to do that. I like the realism of the real backgrounds. And so I try to encourage people to do that, and then I help them get that right. So did I answer your question?

Ken White

You did, you did. And actually, you brought up another point a background. So many people seem to be worried about backgrounds, not necessarily the lighting, but what is it behind me? Should I go virtual? Your idea of if you've got the technology, go ahead with virtual because it does. It bleeds out, and it doesn't look good. But what if somebody has a room in their house? What should they put in the background? What's the background that's not distracting, for example.

Kim Foley

Well, I'll tell you what is distracting. A window is distracting because it's too bright. Another thing that's distracting is lot of people have a piece of art behind with glass in it. If you've got enough light shining on your face toward you, then it's going to be reflecting off of that painting behind you on the glass. And I've seen it a million times, very distracting. So what you want to do is you want to set this up, look at it and say, well, what things on the screen? People won't know what they are. They'll be trying really hard to figure it out. So if there's little things that sort of capture people's attention with reflection, get them out of the shot, just move them down underneath the table or in a box someplace else. I've had more people move things in their backgrounds and bring in things you might need. You might need some prettier books, or you might need a plant, or you might need to get rid of the like this morning with a lawyer I was consulting with, I said, you've got all those glasses in the background. Let's just get those out of the shot. We don't need twenty-five glasses in the background.

Ken White

Yeah.

Kim Foley

And he just never noticed it because they've always been there. And so it's again, a credibility issue. What are people seeing in your background? It's part of the story about who you are. So you want to make sure it looks thought out, and it looks simple and neutral and nothing that's going to really detract from you. That's the important. You're not trying to show something off here. You're trying to keep the attention on you, and anything else that distracts should be moved.

Ken White

It's interesting that you're standing. Of course, I could see on video our audience can't. I am a stander. I do ninety percent of my meetings standing. That's tough to stand eight hours a day. But do you have a preference in terms of virtual meeting standards?

Kim Foley

I stand eight hours a day. I do.

Ken White

Yeah.

Kim Foley

And I'll tell you why. Two reasons. One, my back's much happier at the end of the day. I truly feel better, more energized at the end of the day if I stand than if I sit. I get much more tired, I don't understand it, but it's true. The other thing is I find that and the research does support this, but when you stand and use your body language, your voice inflection changes. You are actually speaking in different tones than if you're locked down, sitting. And so I find that by being able to use my body language, shift my weight and use my hands, that I'm a better teacher. I really am a better consultant because of it. And so I encourage people to stand when they do this. Again you got to get that computer at eye level, not kind of eye level.

Ken White

Which is actually not very hard to do when you stand, actually. I mean, you get a desk or a filing cabinet. It's actually not very difficult. You mentioned the nonverbal aspects. You're using your hands, you're able to move around, and you briefly mentioned some of the verbal side of things like inflection. How we speak on Zoom is a little different, right? How do you what do you tell clients in terms of their inflection and so forth?

Kim Foley

When you are on a two-dimensional environment, and you're not in person? People don't have an opportunity to see your whole body in action. They're just looking into this little box, and they're trying to focus on your face. And so those micro-expressions are very important. So what people tend to do when they get on video, first of all, number one, people tend to not like the way they look on camera. That's one thing. And when you don't like the way you look on camera, people get kind of closed down. So what they'll do is they'll just sort of stare at the screen, and they won't have any expression at all. And it's different. And so if you're trying to inspire, you're trying to inform, you're trying to sell whatever you're trying to do with someone on that through that screen there, what you want to do is almost over animate because if you do that, it doesn't really translate because it's a two-dimensional vehicle.

Ken White

Yeah.

Kim Foley

So, yeah. So what and I teach is in my media training, when people are doing a lot of video, they need this training to get comfortable with the idea that they can loosen up, use more voice inflection and use their body more because it's actually much more engaging if you're giving a presentation and you're standing up, and you're using your arms. What you don't want to do is use your hands if you are framing yourself shoulder up and the hands come popping in. It's distracting.

Ken White

Mmm-mmm.

Kim Foley

Back up. Make sure your head's to the top of the frame, get a chest-up shot, and then when you use your hands, they're at chest level, and it makes sense. It doesn't distract from what people are seeing. And that's a great way to do a presentation.

Ken White

It is interesting. You said the two dimensional. It does. You have to be a little animated. It does steal a little bit away from your voice and your nonverbal the medium. It's kind of interesting how that happens.

Kim Foley

Yeah, it really is. And that's why when people watch people on the news or actors, they think, oh, I could do that. But then if they're ever put in front of a camera, they freeze up and realize, oh, no, I can't do that. It's really not easy to be all either dramatic or charming or enthused and use body language when you're sitting behind a desk. It's really, really hard, and it takes the skill level and self-awareness. And so if I could just bring some of that to people when they're doing their meetings to inspire their teams or to talk to potential clients and close deals, it's going to make such a difference, in the end, result in terms of building trust. That's what we're trying to do here, is build trust. And so you have to look like the expert that you are. And so many people have ruined that on this medium. They don't mean to. They don't want to, but they don't know the solutions. And that's why I ended up writing the book.

Ken White

Leaders and even managers have got to embrace video today. Forget Zoom, just video in general. That's how we're communicate. This has become an essential skill for leaders.

Kim Foley

It has, as a matter of fact. I even use an app called BombBomb, where I can send video emails to people, and it's not like constant contact app that takes people off the page. It actually, they can just open their email, see my little video, click on it, and hear me have a conversation. And people are blown away that I email them with a video instead of a text. And it's far more powerful. And people say, oh my gosh, and I teach people how to do this because I want them to be able to harness this very, very valuable, very, very powerful platform video. It's just not hard to do. You just need to learn a few skills.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Kim Foley, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The perfect time to pursue your MBA is right now. Businesses and organizations are seeking professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively, and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and more in the William & Mary MBA program. Offered in four formats, the full-time, the evening, the online, and the executive MBA. Finally, we'd like to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest, Kim Foley, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White, wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

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Episode 142: November 19, 2020

Escaping the COVID-19 Rut

It’s been eight months since COVID-19 began to change our world, and during that time some leaders, professionals, and organizations have been quite successful in launching new ventures, serving customers differently, and finding new sources of revenue. But for others, the pandemic has been more of a challenge. It’s stifled their creativity and their ability to move forward. The uncertainty and fear of the unknown have caused them to spin their wheels. Our guest today says if you are struggling, there are answers. He says entrepreneurs and the traits and mindsets that make up entrepreneurial thinking can serve as a guide to success during the pandemic. Graham Henshaw is the Executive Director of the Alan B. Miller Entrepreneurship Center at William & Mary’s School of Business. He joins us today to discuss the elements of entrepreneurial thinking you can leverage during the pandemic. Elements like Opportunity/Discovery, tolerance for ambiguity, and improvisation.

Podcast (audio)

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Show Notes
Show Notes
  • What makes entrepreneurs more equipped to thrive during a pandemic
  • What makes a good mindset of an entrepreneur
  • How does an entrepreneur learn their skills
  • What is entrepreneurial thinking
  • What elements of entrepreneurial thinking will help leaders navigate the pandemic
  • How important is it to be able to spot opportunities
  • The benefits of being able to make adjustments on the fly
  • What are the entrepreneurial benefits of collaboration
Transcript

Graham Henshaw: Escaping the COVID-19 Rut TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. It's been eight months since covid-19 began to change our world. And during that time, some leaders, professionals, and organizations have been quite successful in launching new ventures, serving customers differently, and finding new sources of revenue. But for others, the pandemic has been more of a challenge. It's stifled their creativity and their ability to move forward. The uncertainty and fear of the unknown has caused them to spin their wheels. Well, our guest today says if you are struggling, there are answers. He says entrepreneurs and the traits and mindsets that make up entrepreneurial thinking can serve as a guide to success during the pandemic. Graham Henshaw is the Executive Director of the Alan B. Miller Entrepreneurship Center at William & Mary's School of Business. He joins us on the podcast today to discuss the elements of entrepreneurial thinking you can leverage during the pandemic. Elements like opportunity, discovery, tolerance for ambiguity, and improvisation. Here's our conversation with Graham Henshaw.

Ken White

Well, Graham, great to see you. Thanks very much for sharing, sharing your time with us. Welcome back to the podcast.

Graham Henshaw

Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

Ken White

Yeah, this is your second time. And so, yeah, you're in a special club. You know, we should have a plaque or a T-shirt or something.

Graham Henshaw

I'm waiting on the t-shirt.

Ken White

There you go. Yeah. Yeah. That's the you know, you're into something, right, when you've got a t-shirt for it.

Graham Henshaw

That's right.

Ken White

Yeah. You know, we're living in such an interesting time right now, and some people are just not getting it done. They feel stuck. On the other hand, entrepreneurs often positioned and thought of as people who can lead, who can function, create, and even thrive under pressure. Is that is that an accurate statement in your mind?

Graham Henshaw

I think it is in my experience. I've observed that. And I think I'd probably expand a little bit on the this notion of pressure. And I think that comes from being in situations where you can't reliably predict the outcome. And I think we're in that kind of situation right now. And these are where the past offers very little predictive certainty about the future. And often, entrepreneurs are just the people who thrive under those conditions where other people actually find themselves anxious. An entrepreneur actually might gravitate to that situation where the outcome is actually unknown. So, yeah, I do think that's accurate.

Ken White

Are they born with that ability? Is it learned? How do they get there?

Graham Henshaw

That's an interesting question. There's been a lot of debate on that over the years. That turns out it's a little bit of both. So there are aspects of the entrepreneurial mindset that seem like they're built-in. And then there are others that are shown to be skills, and you can learn those. And so, as with any skill, if you practice it, you get a little bit better at it over time. But what the really interesting thing is about the mindset is even though you can't move the needle so much on the mindsets, if you just become aware of your mindset, for example, risk acceptance is one of those mindsets. There's not much you can do to move the needle on risk acceptance. But if you know where you stand on risk acceptance and you encounter a situation that kind of pegs your meter where it's at, then you can change your behavior in that situation, you can come up with mitigating practices to get around that. So maybe when you encounter that situation, you know, I've got a call, Ken. Ken has a really high-risk tolerance. So he's going to help me get through this, or you have a checklist or something like that. So the awareness on the mindset side can really be a big help as well. So it's a little bit of both.

Ken White

Yeah, interesting. Well, you in the Miller Center for Entrepreneurship? You focus a great deal on entrepreneurial thinking, which is a little bit different. Can you explain that?

Graham Henshaw

Yeah. So we made a decision years ago to focus on this broader application of entrepreneurial skills and mindsets versus the typical very narrow application, which is venture creation startups. And I love startups. That's sort of where I came from. But it seemed like that was not going to be the best focus for us at William & Mary. And so we instead zoomed out a little bit to focus on a set of four skills. And so those are opportunity discovery, failing wisely, improvisation, and collaboration, and then four mindsets, a tolerance for ambiguity, grit, risk acceptance, and self-direction. So the collection of those is what we mean when we say entrepreneurial thinking. And our sense is that they are a highly versatile set of skills and mindsets that can be applied in a lot of different settings, not just the venture creation setting. So startups are just one manifestation of that way of thinking. And the broader perspective has allowed us to engage in a much larger population. We formerly worked with predominantly MBA students, so five years ago, our programming really engaged just the MBA students. And fast forward five years, and we have hundreds of students from across campus that are engaged from majors that I didn't even know existed. We have twenty-five plus different majors that are plugging into this entrepreneurial thinking focus.

Ken White

So it's showing that their employers, large, small, for-profit, nonprofit, whatever it is, they value entrepreneurial thinking.

Graham Henshaw

They do. And we see that when they come into our space and our new entrepreneurship hub, we have a giant mural on the wall with these four skills and the four mindsets. And there hasn't ever been a time that an employer has come through and had a tour and not said, wow, if you have students with those things, we want them. And so, we have been trying to create a brighter line between entrepreneurial thinking and these great career outcomes. We want students to make that connection, as well as the employers, already have made that connection.

Ken White

And we should mention congratulations to you and the team at the Miller Entrepreneurship Center, William & Mary, one of the named one of the top 50 business schools in the world for entrepreneurship. And that's you. That's congratulations. That had to feel pretty cool.

Graham Henshaw

Now that felt great. Honestly, it's one of those things where we already knew we had something amazing happening. You know, we're in it every day, and we see the outcomes. But it is really good to get that external validation that what we're doing is working. And you don't often get to come up for air long enough to appreciate that. So this has been a neat moment to recognize the efforts of everybody on the team to make this a really wonderful program across the entire university, especially here, as in the Poets and Quants rankings for the MBA audience as well.

Ken White

No doubt. Well, you know, I've spoken with professionals, leaders, managers who feel the weight and the stress of the pandemic is getting in the way of their success, their ability to adopt entrepreneurial thinking, the skills, and the mindsets. But you say there are some elements that professionals can adopt to help them. What are those?

Graham Henshaw

Yeah, and first, I want to say you know I get that sense of being a little bit frozen in this season. I've connected with lots and lots of businesses in our area who are really struggling, and they're just trying to figure out how to survive amidst the pandemic. So I know it's hard, and I don't want to minimize those struggles. But having said that, I do think that for most people, there are a few skills and traits that could be really useful right now. And again, it does require coming up for air just for a second. But if I could wave a magic wand impart an extra dose of some of those skills and traits that we have been speaking about, I think I would choose to spread around some opportunity discovery, some tolerance for ambiguity, and certainly some improvisation. I think these things would go a long way right now to helping people navigate this situation.

Ken White

Well, let's define those. When you say opportunity discovery, what do you mean?

Graham Henshaw

Sure. This one is the ability to spot opportunities where other people don't see them. This is a situation where sometimes some people see a problem, but the entrepreneurial thinker sees the opportunity that that is connected to that problem. Most of the time, people don't see anything at all. So a problem is a step up. But the opportunity is that next step. And so, in some ways, the pandemic has been a catalyst for some organizations to look much more closely than they ever have needed to before to serve their customers or to generate revenue. I think that sometimes normalcy can lead to complacency, and then it causes us to miss these opportunities that are right under our noses. So to opportunity discovery is hunting those opportunities that most people miss.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Graham Henshaw in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. There is no better time than right now to pursue your MBA. With businesses and organizations experiencing so much change, they're seeking professionals who can communicate, think strategically, and deal with ambiguity. Skills taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different formats, including the full time, the evening, the online, and the executive. The William & Mary MBA will prepare you to succeed in our new world. Check out the MBA programs at William & Mary today. Now back to our conversation on adopting entrepreneurial thinking during covid-19 with Graham Henshaw, executive director of the Alan B. Miller Entrepreneurship Center at William & Mary.

Ken White

Improvisation.

Graham Henshaw

So improvisation and tolerance for ambiguity, I would say go, go hand in hand, and so improvisation is the ability to make course corrections as the situation on the ground dictates. And that's, I think, what a lot of leaders are experiencing right now. They've got a playbook. This might and have not been in it. The pandemic was likely not in your playbook. And so you have to make some calls on the ground and adjust those as the situation dictates. So it used to be that entrepreneurship programs taught students how to write business plans. And we haven't done that for quite a while because we know that and even in good times, no plan survives first contact with customers. And I think that people are seeing that more now than ever. We need to be agile. We need to not hold on too tightly to how we thought the solution was going to be rolled out. We need to be able to adjust course as necessary.

Ken White

Going back to opportunity discovery, that's something that people can learn?

Graham Henshaw

Yeah, opportunity discovery is one of those skills that you can learn. One of the ways is to learn where you need to look. And oftentimes, organizations are looking in the wrong places. So I'll refer back to the classic Peter Drucker text where he talks about sources of innovative opportunity. And it turns out that most people are looking in the riskiest of places for those opportunities, which is this breakthrough discovery R&D that's never been done before. There are opportunities there, but oftentimes they're binary. It'll either work, or it doesn't work now. Now is not the time for that. There are other sources that are much more reliable, and they're easier. They have higher odds of success. One of those is to look for opportunities where the unexpected has happened. So the unexpected success or the unexpected failure. But let's take the unexpected success in the case of the pandemic. You could look at organizations that have unexpectedly seen success. What is it about their model that we might be able to implement for our own? So that's one. Demographics are another source of innovative opportunity. So so learning where to look is one of those things. And the other is a lens shift. If you're trying to learn this skill of opportunity discovery, you need to stop looking for ideas and start looking for problems. I try to get my students to see that all the time. They say I'd really love to do entrepreneurship, but I'm just waiting for that big idea, that flash of genius. I say, well, you're going to be waiting for a while, but you might find it to be more productive if you just look around and try to look for some challenges, look for some problems that potential customers are having. And if you solve that problem, you're probably going to develop an innovative solution that addresses that. And as a result of that, maybe a more sustainable business than if you just sit around and try to come up with a brilliant idea. There's lots of brilliant ideas out there, by the way, that don't make for a good business. So I think it's always better to search for opportunities and problems.

Ken White

How interesting. I read a story today about someone who was out of work. You talk about where to look, realize that people want to adopt pets, dogs right now, and now she delivers them all over the country.

Graham Henshaw

Yeah.

Ken White

She's made a huge business. Right. And it's looking for problems. That's so interesting.

Graham Henshaw

Exactly. That's a great example of opportunity discovery. That's the unexpected event. We didn't expect pet adoptions to go through the roof. And there's an opportunity there if you look at that.

Ken White

Is it helpful to, I assume, helpful to bring others in and say, I'm stuck? This is what I'm thinking about. What do you think? I'm assuming that the answer, of course, is yes to that.

Graham Henshaw

Yeah. And so that's why collaboration is one of those pillars of entrepreneurial thinking. It's important to bring in those other perspectives, especially in these kinds of situations where we might view this situation one way. But someone else who maybe has seen something tangential, they bring a different perspective that's useful as you're trying to navigate through those challenges. So so collaboration is an essential part of that entrepreneurial thinking toolkit?

Ken White

Well, especially to our listeners who find entrepreneurship and entrepreneurial thinking interesting. I'm excited to announce that Graham, you, and the Miller Entrepreneurship Center have your own podcast now, which is I've heard I love the host. This is so cool. Please tell us about your new podcast.

Graham Henshaw

Yeah. So the new podcast is called Day One, and it's currently recorded by one the Miller Center fellows, Sonia Kinkhabwala, and I have to give all the credit to her. It was her idea. She is the fellow in charge of reaching out to alumni. And we just had an interesting problem this fall when we realized we had so many connections to amazing alumni stories and not enough space to tell those stories in our current lineup of programming. And so we thought, what can we do? That's a little bit different to feature these fantastic entrepreneurial journeys of these William & Mary alumni. And so she came up with this idea for day one, which is an unfiltered look at the life of an entrepreneurial thinker. It's not your typical startup showcase. It's more what is it actually like to start and run a venture? And we really do focus on these entrepreneurial thinking pillars in these conversations with those entrepreneurial thinkers. And it's not just startups. It's it's nonprofits. It's being an innovator inside of a large organization. It runs the gamut. So the diversity there matches the diversity in our student membership. So these entrepreneurial thinkers come from across the entire campus. So it's really been a wonderful opportunity discovery.

Ken White

Yeah.

Graham Henshaw

And we have now, at the time of this recording, three great episodes under our belts, and we are excited to continue that journey.

Ken White

And where can our listeners find day one? Where can they get to it and subscribe?

Graham Henshaw

So right now, it's listed on Spotify. And so if you just go to Spotify and search for day one, you will find those episodes that we have currently recorded.

Ken White

Graham, thanks for your time. Give us a lot to think about. And if you're into this, find day one, and you'll hear so much more about how entrepreneurial thinking can really change your life.

Graham Henshaw

Absolutely. I fully believe that. Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Ken White
That's our conversation with Graham Henshaw, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. Now is the perfect time to pursue your MBA. Businesses and organizations are seeking professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively, and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and much more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats the full-time, the evening, the online, and the executive MBA. Finally, we'd love to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guests Graham Henshaw, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White, wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week.

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 Jane Stevenson
Jane StevensonEpisode 141: November 5, 2020
Women are Leaving the Workforce

Jane Stevenson

Episode 141: November 5, 2020

Women are Leaving the Workforce

The consequences of COVID-19 have been numerous. Some have been positive, some negative, and some have been eye-opening. Like the news that hundreds of thousands of women are leaving the workforce. In fact, leaving at four times the rate as men. Some of the departures are due to layoffs in hard-hit sectors like hospitality and retail, but that's not the driver behind the numbers. In many cases, women are leaving to homeschool their children and serve as caregivers. The fallout has the potential to be felt for years that erases some of the gains made by women in leadership roles. Jane Stevenson is Global Leader for CEO Succession, and Vice Chairman, Board and CEO Services for the global organizational consulting firm Korn Ferry. She joins us today to discuss why women are leaving the workforce and what organizations can do about it.

Podcast (audio)

Jane Stevenson: Women are Leaving the Workplace TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Podcast (platforms)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • Jane's reaction to women leaving the workforce
  • Will the exodus of women from the workforce continue as COVID continues
  • Why are women leaving the workforce in such large numbers
  • Is COVID the only driver of women leaving the workforce
  • What are ways to encourage women back to the workforce
  • What are the negative effects of fewer women in leadership roles
  • What is the Power of All initiative at Korn Ferry
  • How important is diversity in the workplace
  • What can leaders do to encourage their employees to advocate for themselves
Transcript

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategy, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Well, the consequences of COVID-19 have been numerous. Some have been positive, some negative, and some have been eye-opening, like the news that hundreds of thousands of women are leaving the workforce, in fact, leaving at four times the rate as men. Some of the departures are due to layoffs in hard-hit sectors like hospitality and retail. But that's not the driver behind the numbers. In many cases, women are leaving to homeschool their children and serve as caregivers. The fallout has the potential to be felt for years that erases some of the gains made by women in the workplace in recent years. In addition, organizations are at risk of losing women in leadership roles. Jane Stevenson is Global Leader for CEO Succession and Vice Chairman, Board and CEO Services for the global organizational consulting firm Korn Ferry. She joins us today to discuss why women are leaving the workforce and what organizations can do about it. Here's our conversation with Jane Stevenson of Korn Ferry.

Ken White

Well, Jane, thanks for sharing your time and your expertise with us. It's nice to see you. Thanks for being with us.

Jane Stevenson

It's a pleasure to be here.

Ken White

What was your reaction when you saw these numbers, this large number of women leaving the workforce? What was your reaction initially to that?

Jane Stevenson

I think I gasped initially. As you probably know, I led a body of work called Women CEOs Speak that addresses the pathway to CEO. And so thinking about the progression of women coming up through the ranks and what it really represents to lose, you know, potentially a quarter or so of them is really scary. And it potentially wipes out so much positive progress. I felt like we were just peaking in terms of two things coming together. One, the light coming on for women about what's possible further on in their career and even to the top of the house and two enough examples of that to make it seem normal. Right. And less of an oddity when we appoint a woman CEO. And so when you think about what it really represents, have so many high potential women out of the mix, that is a really tough, tough hill to climb.

Ken White

Do you think this could continue as COVID continues?

Jane Stevenson

You know, it's hard to answer what the future holds on so many levels, but I think we have a real issue, and we have an issue that probably has always existed, the issue of care and who provides it. And one of the reasons that I think women have been standouts from government leadership to business leadership during this time is that really unique ability that women have to think outside themselves and not always empathetically but often, but certainly thinking about a system that is more than just me. And so it works really well to bring great leadership in difficult situations. But it also is something that pulls on women in unique ways when there's care that needs to be given, and they feel there's no one else to provide it.

Ken White

So that's certainly one reason we're hearing as to why some of the some women are leaving the workforce is they have to give care at home, or they're taking care of a parent or a child. What are some of the other reasons that some women are opting to step out?

Jane Stevenson

Well, it's interesting. In the research that I mentioned, we saw that women's balance scores were higher. And in the easy read of that was that women wanted to build in time for family, etc. in different ways. When we dug underneath that from a psychometrics perspective, we found that actually wasn't the case. But what women do do is to evaluate and weigh out what needs are and where there is the most weighting isn't just the job. So it really looks at if you are a woman and you feel like you're working inordinately hard and you're going nowhere, and you have demands that are pulling you in other directions, you're going to try another way to get there. So oftentimes, women, even before COVID, left the corporate environment because it felt so frustrating, working so hard and not getting as far as they knew they should. But they're going to think about, you know, that that balance driver is going to have them figuring out another way to get to the goal. So you see a lot of women go starting businesses on their own or doing other things. The downside of that is that we then don't have them in the pipeline for top leadership because we lose them at the point at which they're really most able to contribute in ways that are significant. And so we've got to really figure that out. And COVID is just an exclamation mark on an already challenged situation.

Ken White

Mmm. Are there ways to get them back? I mean, has anyone figured that out?

Jane Stevenson

I think there are some ways to get them back, and they're pretty logical. There are ways that look at what is someone capable of doing and how do we enable that capability to make a difference, which is very different than, you know,  this is how it's done. And if you can't crack that nut, then too bad for you. Right.

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Jane Stevenson

And so I view women's leadership as being an incremental opportunity or weapon, if you will, in, you know, in what the world needs. I think, frankly, diversity in all forms is true of that. But for women, if we don't have women in the mix, then we lose an element that we've now seen in multiple studies equates to better financial performance and better cultural environments. Both of which I think, you know, are very much needed. So so, so that's the nut that we have to crack in business and in society is, you know, do we want to create a penalty kind of organizational structure that we don't shift or change or do we want to tap into unique capabilities and opportunities for the world? Right. So this isn't just for the women. It really is for the world that enables the world to get that incremental difference to work for it.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Jane Stevenson of Korn Ferry in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. There is no better time than right now to pursue your MBA. With businesses and organizations experiencing so much change, they're seeking professionals who can communicate, think strategically, and deal with ambiguity. Skills taught in the William & Mary MBA program. We offer four different formats, including the Full-Time, the Evening also known as the Flex Program, the Online, and the Executive MBA. The William & Mary MBA will prepare you to succeed in our new world. Check out the MBA programs at William & Mary today. Now back to our conversation on Women Leaving the Workforce with Jane Stevenson of Korn Ferry.

Ken White

You mentioned diversity. Tell us about your Power of All initiative at Korn Ferry. That's interesting.

Jane Stevenson

Sure. So Power of all was really, really born out of a belief that we need diversity in all forms in the work environment, and that there are huge benefits for everyone in doing that and that we at Korn Ferry were uniquely able to tap into that and we're willing to put some resources against it. So it started from some research projects that we did around pipelines to top leadership for women. We also then mentioned women CEOs Speak. We just last fall launched one for black  P&L leaders. And so what frankly, some of our board members said to those of us in leadership was we need to have a resource that gives us confidence that the organizations that we're on boards for most board members have more than one board. And, you know, in our other boards, we would love to have a resource that we felt reliably could enable us to hold leadership accountable for having diversity. And so this really spurred our CEO, Gary Burnison. And several of us were pulled together, and we said, you know what, we really should take this on as an opportunity to ensure for all of our clients that we are able to ensure diversity and pipelines, ensure that our development and assessment tools are enabling diverse leaders to do well and to move forward, as well as in our pay equality efforts to ensure that they are rewarded in fair ways. And I could go on. I mean, we have, you know, top teamwork and other work, so it's a work in progress. But it is a I think, a major source of pride for a lot of partners of the firm that we're really it's a lot about action and a little about words.

Ken White

Yeah, you mentioned the word pipeline a few times. What we're looking at, the number of women leaving are these women who are in the pipeline, those who are middle managers, high potentials. Who exactly are we talking?

Jane Stevenson

Well, you know, I think we'll learn more about that over time because I think we're pretty soon to be definitive about that. But we'll definitely lose some of those. You know, one of the things about COVID is it's an equal opportunity inflector. Right. And so, you know, it doesn't really matter if you're the president of a division or if you are more junior in the organization. Some of the issues that are being faced around family members, around care for kids, around elder care, around all these things are impacting people at all levels. Now, it most negatively impacts the more junior players because they don't have compensation that that allows them options. And this is where I think it is super important for organizations to think about. What does that really represent in terms of an opportunity cost? Because it's easy to think in terms of it being just a situation that can't be helped. And that's one way to look at it. But those of us who are more innovative and more looking at opportunity are saying, you know, that that doesn't have to be the way that it is. What are ways we can tap into the potential that we're put we're going to be losing so that we don't have, you know, just a major dent in the opportunity pipeline for the future?

Ken White

Yeah, sounds like retention, right? If you invest in it, you keep your good people.

Jane Stevenson

It's absolutely that. And it's also a little bit of marketing, right? I mean, you wouldn't target diapers to middle-aged men. Right. And so I think we have to think about who is the population and what do we do that really addresses needs for them, not just what are we going to do, a one size fits all. And, you know, that's the other thing. I think that is super important. And I was just involved in a small select session on mental health yesterday and, you know, the need for people to see, be seen and to understand their value is really important during this COVID period. And if someone's going through huge difficulty in juggling all that's on their plate, even just knowing that someone knows is is is not a small thing. I was in a session, and someone shared as a consequence of the Holocaust, a learning that what's shareable is bearable. And I never forgot that. I thought that is so powerful. And I think it's really true for workforces today and for leaders as we think about our organizations. How do we really share the load with each other, and how do we support unique needs for unique people? And just by the way, I know we're talking about women, but it's also true that some diverse areas of organizations have unique issues as well. So, for example, Latin X and black employees tend to have larger family systems where there are smaller numbers of people that have both physical and caretaking responsibility for more people. So, you know, that's part of this systemic issue that we face. How do we help people break out and use all of the unique gifts that they have in ways that actually serve us well? So we think about it as making this sort of do-good contribution. But the reality is, you know if you tap into a key number of those folks who have unique gifts that are not going to be realized and you enable that, that's actually a return on investment. And it's a really different way to think that I think is important in the COVID era in particular.

Ken White

Interesting, yeah. From an individual standpoint, you're a woman in the pipeline. Career is going great. You can't do it. There's just too many responsibilities. I think we would say, tell your boss, tell somebody. But I know people are reluctant to do that. What kind of advice would you have for a working professional who should tell but just doesn't feel comfortable doing so?

Jane Stevenson

So I'll give you a few things there. But I honestly think we ought to be giving the advice to the leaders. I think the leaders are the ones that really should have the accountability to look out and know what's going on. And, you know, we just have no way to know. And I'll just share a story personally from this morning. There's a woman on my team who is absolutely extraordinary, and she is on the way to really big things. And she's been out delivering what I did not realize until this morning when I called her for no reason. She just was on my heart for some reason, called her. And I happened to ask how her husband was doing. He was fired last week. I didn't know that she has two small children at home. And, you know, this is a huge load to carry. Right. And it wouldn't have come up. It wouldn't have come up. So I think we have to ask. We have to understand. And it's all part of I think this time that we're in to make sure people are seen and heard and that what they're contributing isn't the only thing that we're interested in. We're also interested in what is their experience and how can we help each other because great leaders tap into what gets the best out of their people. And our lives are absolutely inextricably linked to our work.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Jane Stevenson, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. The perfect time to pursue your MBA is right now. Businesses and organizations are seeking professionals who think strategically, communicate effectively, and manage ambiguity. You'll learn those skills and much more in the William & Mary MBA program offered in four formats the Full-Time, the Evening, the Online, and the Executive MBA. Finally, we'd love to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest Jane Stevenson, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White, wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week ahead.

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Episode 140: September 30, 2020

Job Seeking During the Pandemic

According to a recently released report by McKinsey, jobs will most likely change following the pandemic. The report says the adoption of automation and digitization will accelerate. Demand for contract and remote workers will increase as well. Thanks to COVID-19, the way we look for a new job is changing too. In-person, face-to-face interviews have moved to video. Traditional networking is now mostly online. But those changes don't mean you should put your job search on hold. Some of the tactics we've used in the past continue to be effective while some new approaches are also working. Brett Alpert is Associate Dean for Career Services and the Executive Director of the Graduate Career Management Center at the William & Mary School of Business. He and his team, among other things, offer comprehensive career planning assistance to students while working closely with employers. He joins us on the podcast to talk about the ways job seekers are finding success during the pandemic.

Podcast (audio)

Brett Alpert: Job Seeking During the Pandemic TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • How has job searching changed during the pandemic
  • Why it is important to acknowledge that the world has changed
  • What are the different networking strategies to employ during this time
  • What's the overall picture for people seeking employment opportunities
  • How to think of your skillset when considering job searches
  • The difference between face-to-face video interviews and recorded video interviews
  • How AI is being used to scan resumes and filter candidates
  • What to do to stay positive during a lengthy job search
Transcript

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business. The podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. According to a recently released report by McKinsey, jobs will most likely change following the pandemic. The report says the adoption of automation and digitization will accelerate, demand for contract and remote workers will increase as well. Well, thanks to COVID-19, the way we look for a new job is changing, too. In-person, face to face interviews have moved to video. Traditional networking is now mostly online. But those changes don't mean you should put your job search on hold. Some of the tactics we've used in the past continue to be effective, while some new approaches are also working. Brett Alpert is Associate Dean for Career Services and the Executive Director of the Graduate Career Management Center at the William & Mary School of Business. He and his team, among other things, offer comprehensive career planning assistance to students while working closely with employers. He joins us on the podcast to talk about the ways job seekers are finding success during the pandemic. Here's our conversation with Brett Alpert.

Ken White

Well, Brett, thank you very much for taking time to join us. Good to see you.

Brett Alpert

Good to see you as well, happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Ken White

You know, you have the kind of job where I'm sure people come up to you all the time you know and say, what's it look like out there? Who's hiring and what's your crystal ball say so. And I want to ask all those questions. So basically, what's it look like when you see the overall picture out there? What do you think?

Brett Alpert

Well, the world is definitely changed a lot since COVID, the onslaught of COVID, and it hasn't changed everywhere and in every way. But it has changed a lot. And it's really important that people who are out searching for employment or those doing the hiring really accept that. And think about it. I remember a book by Amanda Ripley who survived disaster and why, and it talked about how people go through a stage during a crisis of denial, then deliberation, and then a decisive moment taking action. And while we're all dealing with difficult circumstances and some are dealing with more than others, they've lost loved ones in this difficult time. It is important to acknowledge that the world has changed. It is different. You can't just do the same things that you did before to find employment. And when you do that, and you accept that things have changed, you adopt different strategies to go out and to search. You find the silver linings. You find the opportunities in the midst of a crisis. You do things like connect in new ways by reaching out via virtual technology and other mediums versus just waiting things to get back to the way that they were before.

Ken White

Oh wow, what a great point. Well, you said reaching out, which, of course, is networking. Has that changed, or are there different strategies now? While we're still dealing with the pandemic.

Brett Alpert

Definitely, it's changed. It's changed in multiple ways or some ways where, you know, common practices, what you follow in the course of a conversation stays the same. However, you've lost the ability for chance encounters for happenstance during this COVID time frame. Where you just bump into somebody in the hallway who happens to be in a building, and you shake hands, and you say hello, and you decide to sit down for coffee and a meal. You've lost that opportunity, at least during this time frame. However, the model, the mode, whatever you might want to call it, that networking has to take place in person, has been totally shattered. People have gotten accustomed to the fact now that they're utilizing Zoom and utilizing other forms of virtual technology. So with that, some of the geographic boundaries for networking have also been shattered. You may be somebody that's living in Virginia, and you'd like to make a contact with somebody who lives in California, you see, has the exact type of job that you one day aspire to be in. In the past, you might have waited. You may have done a quick email or a phone call or something of that nature or waited until you were in that area before reaching out to that person because you might have thought that the best way to do it was to meet for coffee or for lunch. Well, now you can't do that. And people on the other side of those interactions know that as well. And it allows people the freedom and flexibility to think about connecting virtually, setting up a Zoom chat, setting up a conversation by Skype or GoTo meeting, or whatnot. People are more receptive to it. It's also led to more of a benefit of the doubt where you're trying, of course, to put your best foot forward in the course of networking. But people understand that you may have kids in the background. They understand that you may have a situation where the technology just fails on you. And it's nice to be in that type of environment where people are going to at least give you more of the benefit of the doubt than you would have had before.

Ken White

Interesting. So so in this case, change isn't necessarily all negative, right? Some people don't like change, but there's some real benefits to this then.

Brett Alpert

Yeah, it's a mixed bag like most. You have to be looking at both sides acknowledge the fact that there's difficulties, there's challenges, there's things you wish were back to the way they used to be. But once you have really accepted and adopted the change mindset that there's a new world out there, and you have to do something because others are actually taking action, and you find out what the strategic things are that you need to do. And you build your network or reach out the right ways. Well, you have opportunities for expansion. There's a great book out there as well that was written by a gentleman, Steve Dalton, who works over at Duke. It's called the two-hour job search. And it does a great job of outlining strategic approach to network strategic approach to the job search to help ensure that you're not wasting your time on inefficient activities. And it's a wonderful book. And the practices still apply during a COVID time frame, even if the method by which you're communicating with those in the network have changed.

Ken White

So what do you see when you look at the employment front and opportunities, how overall, how's the picture look for professional people today?

Brett Alpert

That's a great question as well. We'll hear from time to time. There's nothing out there for me or in my specific field. Well, we advise people to do is to think hard and deeply about whether they're defining their field too narrowly. If you're in a situation and where you're taking a look and two months into the COVID, you say, you know, your field or your industry of choice is travel and hospitality. And then beyond that, you are thinking more specifically about hotel and resort management. Well, I would encourage you to think a little bit broadly, more broadly, if you're thinking hotel and resort management and that's it, and that's all you're looking for. You really do need to think a little bit more broadly or think about how long you're willing to wait for those types of opportunities to continue to emerge. You're better off thinking and taking a skills approach and looking around and saying, you know, where can I find my skills and potentially acquire new skills so that two, three years from now or whatever it is, the travel and hospitality is booming again. You're able to take those skills that you've attained, and you've put into practice back into the hotel and resort management arena and possibly have a higher level role than you would have had a few years beforehand. And I would say likely have a higher level role than you would have a few years beforehand because you've acquired new skills. I would also encourage folks to take a look at their whatever institution they've graduated from, to take a look at their career management portals that their prior universities continue to maintain, whether it's through handshake, simplicity, 1220. There's a lot of platforms that are out there that are specifically seeking either current students or graduates of very specific colleges and universities. Often these employers will recruit regionally. So if you happen to be in the region where your alma mater was or continues to be, then you want to really tap into that and reach out and make use of those strategies in that network.

Ken White

Well, you hit on something. You didn't say it, but you hit on that transferable skills, and everybody has them. But you and I work with so many professionals, and we see a lot of people don't see that they have transferable skills. Right. So I've been in the hotel business. That's where I keep looking. But, boy, I've got skills that allow me to really flourish over here in this industry. How do people learn that they have transferable skills? Are there certain processes you walk them through? How do you realize that what you really do have some talent and experience there?

Brett Alpert

Yes, definitely. We've got a really talented team here. Fortunately, that helps to work with our student population to guide them through that process. But beyond that, just in speaking with the general audience, if you're really that best off asking others, I think to some, if you are not unable to determine yourself what skills would apply to particular areas, ask people within those industries to take a look at your resume and your prior experiences, see what types of skills resonate with them and they think are specific to their industry as well. Ask people that you care about. Ask peers, whomever it might be that you know will give you constructive, valuable information. But often, when you go to the leaders within the field that you're potentially looking to enter into, they are very skilled at being able to point out and pull out those particular skills, leadership traits, et cetera, that you may not have inherently noticed, but they will see are directly applicable to what they do or what they're looking for in terms of candidates.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Brett Alpert in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If you're thinking about pursuing an MBA, consider William & Mary, whether you're currently completing your bachelor's degree or you have decades of work experience. The William & Mary MBA will transform you four different formats, including the full time, the evening, the online, and the executive. The William & Mary MBA will change and improve the way you think, the way you lead, and the way you live. Just ask any of our alumni. Now back to our conversation on job seeking during the pandemic with Brett Alpert, associate dean of career services at William & Mary's School of Business.

Ken White

You know, if one of our listeners has not been searching for work lately, things have really changed in just a couple of years. And one of them that I think really throws people the first time they see it is their use of video in interviews. Can you tell us how companies are employing video in the search process lately and now?

Brett Alpert

Yeah, that's a very big issue. It's really interesting, too, because there's a consultant, her name is Mary Scott, who does an annual survey of recruiters and students and presents each year at the National Association for Colleges and Employers. And she gathers data throughout this whole process. And historically, but not counting this COVID time frame. Video technology had been on the increase, but students really didn't like it. They really, really, strongly preferred employers coming to engage in person and on campus. I have not seen yet. And they may not have gone through the process of these surveys again to determine what the reflections are of students. But now we're in an environment where there really isn't a choice as to whether you use virtual technology or not in order to connect. So my sense is that students have a lot more comfort with it than they historically did. And they're not drawing maybe the same inferences that they did in the past, which was, oh, this employer doesn't care enough to come to meet me where I am. So that's changed a bit. What I will say is continued is there still is discomfort. There's a two-way technology which is like Zoom or Skype or whatnot, where you have somebody literally on the other side of the camera in this or the laptop or whatever it is that you might be doing where you can read nonverbals, you can have interactions, you can ask questions. That's generally seen as a much more favorable approach than one-way video, which is something that's a reality as well, where a screen will pop up, and it'll have a question here. And you may have a limited amount of time in which you could answer that question, and then you have to make sure you're hitting your points within that limited amount of time. That is still perceived really negatively by students. It was perceived particularly negatively prior to COVID but from at least anecdotal information. Students still find that to be very difficult because they again read into it and say, well, first of all, it's awkward you can't read nonverbal. You don't know if you're perceiving you, your responses are timed, and you can't just rely on nonverbal cues to sort of help trigger when you narrow down your answer. And then it also gives that impression that the employer, on the other side, does not necessarily value you as a candidate enough. And you maybe just a number. They don't value you necessarily enough to actually have somebody on the other side of the camera. Now, some employers are doing a hybrid, which is also a legitimate approach where maybe the first interview, they're having a in-person interaction. And then to get through part two, they've got some specific technical questions or whatnot that they'd like to ask you. And they're deploying them both ways. But I wouldn't advise any employer to really think about doing whatever you can to help ensure that there's somebody on the other side of the camera, at least at some point in these screening interviews, because it does have a challenging and sometimes a negative impact on these student perceptions. And from a student side to be mindful of the fact that you really need to prepare utilizers. There's different technologies out there like interview stream and others that we deploy and others. I think another one called big interview that you could utilize to help practice one-way video type interviews and then watch your performance was like and adjust accordingly.

Ken White

When I talk to professionals, if they have not done one of those one-way video interviews, it is such an eye-opener. It's a jarring experience. And for our listeners who've done them, they know exactly what I'm talking about. Technology is definitely in the game. The other thing that I'm hearing, and of course, you're our guest, you know more in terms of using technology. Is artificial intelligence being used to sort of scan resumes and pull out keywords? How is that? How's that work today?

Brett Alpert

Yeah, some employers are using it, and some aren't. It depends also on the number of resumes that they're accustomed to receiving any unit. If they're receiving thousands of resumes for each sort of segment or set of roles. They will do some sometimes some artificial screening on intelligence screening, on making sure that the appropriate degrees are there, some key skills pop up, and also some of the experiences and the length of time that you've been working. Some of those things can be triggered and set up through AI, so it's a reality with some companies. What we advise students to do is to make sure they're including some of the key buzzwords specific to their industry at hand, but also include beyond the buzz words, some real concrete specifics. So, for example, if you know that a job that you're applying for is looking for coders and programmers. You don't just want to put in your resume. I took a coding class, or I have coding skills. You want to list the specific programs, packages that you are fluent in because those might be things that AI will pick up and will trigger you going into a pile where somebody else may not. You also want to be mindful of ensuring that you're including some other words sort of appropriate for the level of role that you're at. So if you're looking to be a manager of a particular organization, include words like leadership, led, co-founded, ran an initiative on. Things of that nature include key data points. Numbers also sometimes are picked up. I raised five million dollars in X, Y, and Z. If it was a fundraising role, people are going to want to see those types of things. It shouldn't just be long lists of verbiage that don't have any of those keywords that you would want to see or that, you know, an employer would want to see that are specific to your industry.

Ken White

You know, searching for a job when you don't have one or when you do is such a stressful situation. It's just so many unknowns. What kind of advice do you give to people to try to stay positive and to stay up? Because it'll happen, but it's easy for others to say that. What advice do you give?

Brett Alpert

You know, I reflect back to several years back when I graduated from a doctoral program. And that can be a lonely process. You wrap up your dissertation, and you're trying to find employment, and you're searching as you're going doing your dissertation as well. What I found really helpful and advice students as well and those that I've worked with over the years have also found really helpful is to track your activity. And there is some guidance for this and that two-hour job search book that I referenced earlier as well. Because it can feel like you may have submitted 12 resumes, and you could feel like an eternity before you hear back from anybody. And then, all of a sudden, you hear back from three organizations or three companies who are interested in interviewing you. At some point, some of them may be successful; some of them may not. Some of them, they may have had internal candidates in mind, and you just don't know when you're going through that process. And so it can be very frustrating. It could be very lonely. So sometimes surrounding yourself with other people who are also searching can be a really helpful motivating factor, continuing to network with folks who have found positions recently or maybe a year beforehand where in your very shoes to make sure that they can hopefully potentially advocate for you within those companies. But tracking your activity is key so that you have things that you can check off that shows you're making progress along the way. If you set a goal of submitting five resumes and reaching out to 10 contacts today and you've done that, check it off. You may have zero results to show for it that day, but at least you know you're taking the right steps towards potential success. And that really, really is helpful for most students. It was helpful for me as well to show that, hey, I'm doing all the right things. I'm adopting all the appropriate fundamentals in certain cases. I'm going above and beyond by making that next contact or reaching out to someone who knows somebody. That's all you can control. And the degree to which you are focused on the things that you can control versus the things you can't is also something that is uplifting and will keep you positive on your path to finding meaningful work.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Brett Alpert, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If you're thinking about pursuing an MBA, pursue one that delivers a transformational experience, the William & Mary MBA. Four format's the full time, the evening, the online, and the Executive MBA. Finally, we'd love to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest Brett Alpert, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White, wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week.

More Podcast Episodes

 Dr. Kelly Crace
Dr. Kelly CraceEpisode 139: September 3, 2020
Five Strategies to Avoid COVID Burnout

Dr. Kelly Crace

Episode 139: September 3, 2020

Five Strategies to Avoid COVID Burnout

It's been six months since COVID-19 began to change life dramatically in the U.S. and across the world. And as we move into the fall, that change continues, and the amount of uncertainty seems to be growing. Along with it comes ambiguity, disruption, and other elements human beings generally dislike. All of those factors lead to what our guest today calls "chronic too much-ness." For many people today, just "hanging in there" is a real challenge. But there are ways to not only hang tough, but to avoid burnout, and to even flourish during the pandemic. Dr. Kelly Crace is a licensed psychologist. He's Associate Vice President for Health and Wellness at William & Mary. He's the co-author of Authentic Excellence: Flourishing and Resilience in a Relentless World. He joins us today to discuss five mindful strategies you can adopt to avoid burnout and thrive during the pandemic.

Podcast (audio)

Dr. Kelly Crace: Five Strategies to Avoid COVID Burnout TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • The difference between stress and strain
  • The dangers of chronic uncertainty
  • How do people who are in chronic uncertainty maintain mindfulness and flourish
  • What does it mean to start every day with purpose
  • The importance of doing something every day that's enjoyable
  • Why those who flourish find it important to give encouragement and receive encouragement
  • Why it's important to step into something healthy every day
  • How people who flourish process their day differently than those who are suffering from burnout
Transcript

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business, the podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. It's been six months since COVID-19 began to change life dramatically in the U.S. and across the world. And as we move into the fall, that change continues, and the amount of uncertainty seems to be growing. Along with it comes ambiguity, disruption, and other elements human beings generally dislike. Well, all of those factors lead to what our guest today calls chronic too-muchness. For many people today, just hanging in, there is a real challenge, but there are ways to not only hang tough but to avoid burnout and to even flourish during the pandemic. Dr. Kelly Crace is a licensed psychologist. He's associate vice president for health and wellness at William and Mary. He's the co-author of Authentic Excellence, Flourishing and Resilience, and a Relentless World. He joins us today to discuss five mindful strategies you can adopt to avoid burnout and thrive during the pandemic. Here's our conversation with Dr. Kelly Crace.

Ken White

Kelly, thank you very much for sharing your time. It's a busy time of the year for you, and you're on campus today.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Yeah, it feels good to be on campus and to be able to see the students walk by outside my window and wave at them. It's just a good feeling for the heart and the head.

Ken White

No doubt. Yeah, we really need each other, don't we? We need interaction as human beings.

Dr. Kelly Crace

We do. We do. I mean, I think people have started to find somewhat of a rhythm to working at home and to teleworking. I think they've adapted to it, but I don't know if it's necessarily the preferred scenario. And it certainly rang true for me when I came to campus and realized just what I had missed. And it's a good feeling.

Ken White

As you interact not just in the education space but professionals in all sectors and no matter where they live, are you seeing people that have that are starting to really feel the stress and the inconvenience of coronavirus?

Dr. Kelly Crace

Yeah, I think I think that distinction is stress differentiated from strain. I mean, we can manage challenge. Challenge is actually growth-producing, and we can manage stress if the stress is related to things of purpose or meaning. But if we find that kind of there's this chronic level of demands exceeding capabilities, it can move from stress to strain and strain is unsustainable. And that's what leads to burnout. That's what leads to kind of a deterioration of our energy and our motivation and our resilience. And so I think we are seeing in this chronic uncertainty, this kind of relentless pace because people have commented that they almost they feel more busy than before because they're juggling multiple roles in one space. And that strain and the uncertainty of where this is going. So they're developing plans, not knowing if Plan A is going to turn into plan F, you know, so many iterations, it just wears on us. 

Ken White

Yeah. That's the thing I hear from our friends in the corporate space, and across all various sectors is I'll work all week long with my team. We have all this energy, this creativity, and innovation, and we finish it by Friday, and then we learn before we're done Friday scrap that we have things have changed. We have to start over and wearing people down.

Dr. Kelly Crace

It is.

Ken White

Yeah.

Dr. Kelly Crace

We've called this summer the breathless summer because people have not been able to catch their breath. It is felt just ongoing. And now, at a time when we hope most staff and faculty and students come to campus with their tank full, many are coming with their tank close to empty. And that's worrisome to them that that kind of scares them of am I going to be able to get through this with a with an empty tank?

Ken White

You spoke to our incoming Flex MBA students a few days ago. These are working professionals, people who have great jobs, and lead others, and they're pursuing their MBAs now. And you shared your talk was on five strategies to avoid burnout in this time. And I thought as I'm listening, oh we've got bring Kelly on the podcast to talk about that, would you mind let's talk about that, the five strategies. First of all, you're feeling people are definitely, without question, feeling burned out and tired, as you said.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Yeah, these are burnout conditions. So when and some of the work that we did in the research that we were doing around predicting, flourishing and what predicts people to flourish during various conditions, we find that when we're in certain situations that are chronically uncertain but chronically demanding and can be also chronically upsetting. If you can remember, I mean, we're not only in a situation where we're managing pandemic, we're also managing a lot of social unrest around things that are attached to our values. And so people can have a wide range of emotions about these things, and that takes energy. So if that if all of these issues are combined, it creates this scenario of chronic too-muchness that we can step into too much at an acute or temporary level. But when it becomes chronic too-muchness, that's when it starts to move into strain. And if we don't be real intentional, if we're not really mindful about some strategies, we move into kind of a deeper state of burnout. That's pretty serious. And so we found that what do people do that flourish amidst burnout conditions? In other words, they can't change their scenario. They're in conditions that are vulnerable to burnout, and they can't really change that. How do you psychologically manage that? And we found that they are typically intentional and mindful about five key strategies. And that's kind of what we talked about with your group the other day. 

Ken White

Yeah. Let's go through those. Your first one was start every day with purpose.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Yeah.

Ken White

What do you mean by that?

Dr. Kelly Crace

It's just very simply the mindful intention of starting every day with what's important to me. What matters to me and of those things, what matters most today, so there's not only a crystallization of what matters, but there's also a prioritization that of these things that I thought about while I'm brushing my teeth in the morning and thinking about what's important to me, what matters to me today, to also kind of rank them, you know, of those things this one is most important. The key is to ask that every day with a clean slate as if you've never asked it before because the answers will be different based on your day. The reason why that one is so important is it differentiates wants from values, from needs. We typically kind of neurologically live according to fear and comfort. We're most motivated by fear and comfort. And what that means is we're then motivated to deal with all the urgent have to's of the day. And then we seek regulation; we seek comfort. And so we will typically start each day with either what do I have to do or what do I want to do. And the problem with that is when it's a want, that's a preference. And what follows from that is not enough psychological commitment to be able to really engage at it at the full level that you want to. So it never takes hold at a consistent level. Conversely, if it's a have to and a need, what brings with that a certain level of psychological intensity that actually gets in the way of your optimal thinking? It gets in the way of critical thinking, creative thinking; it gets in the way of your performance. So if we start the day with needs or if we start the day with wants, it just puts us in a place where we're not functioning at our optimal. The cool thing is the most deepest, purest form of human motivation are our values. So if we trigger our values intentionally at the beginning of the day by saying what's important to me today, what matters to me today, and then owning that, that gives us a sense of resilience because you're acting according to purpose and purpose is a buffer to burnout.

Ken White

Do something every day, that's enjoyable.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Yeah, and that was kind of a that was a neat little thing we learned about people that that flourish is they're very intentional about doing something every day that's enjoyable. But it's not in the way we normally think about it. They don't chase happiness. They're not necessarily looking for something to take them away from their stress. They just recognize that amidst these burnout conditions and amidst the hardness and the too-muchness of my life, it is important to pause. It is important things become so quick in an environment of too-muchness and chronic too-muchness. And so things get real quick, which means we're quick to run, we're quick to sprint, we're quick to judge, we're quick to not think, but we act. We need to find a time where we can pause a little bit. And so they do something every day that's enjoyed. It doesn't have to be at a level of high intensity where you just feel chills and goosebumps. It can be something very quiet. It can be the favorite cup of coffee with this favorite person that you do in the morning that you're with every morning. To be able to kind of just spend that time together can be at the end of the evening, just sitting out on the deck and taking five minutes to look around in nature. Whatever it is, they never took it for granted. That was the key that in their business they didn't busyness. They didn't say; I just don't have time for this. They made time for it. And we found out it mattered. It mattered in terms of providing a restorative moment.

Ken White

It's just like a lot of very successful CEOs, no matter what, get their workout in every day.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Absolutely.

Ken White

It's so critical to their success.

Dr. Kelly Crace

It's absolutely true.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Dr. Kelly Crace in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. In today's environment, business and the world are constantly changing. You can sit on the sidelines and watch it happen, or you can learn the skills needed to lead and influence in this time of disruption and change. An MBA from William & Mary will provide you with the tools you need to succeed in our new world. There are four different MBA formats, including the Full-Time, the Evening or Flex program, the Online, and the Executive. The William &top-ranked Mary MBA and its top-ranked faculty will prepare you to be the kind of leader our new world needs. Now back to our conversation with Dr. Kelly Crace.

Ken White

Give encouragement, seek encouragement.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Yeah, that was really interesting in terms of the reciprocal nature of it. It made sense why to avoid burnout, why it's good to have your support system around you, and to make sure you're receiving encouragement and receiving support to help sustain you. But we found it was just as important to give it. That there was this reciprocal nature that we as human beings feel that if I'm only giving support and not receiving any, then that feels out of balance for me, and that's straining. But also, if I'm only receiving support and I'm not giving it at some level, that doesn't feel right to us either. And what we found is they thought of support in a multidimensional way. It wasn't just giving emotional support or emotional encouragement of Ken that was a great job or Ken I'm really behind you, that type of thing, that matters. But we found there were multiple dimensions of thinking about encouragement. They had people in their network that they turn to that were good listeners, and they would choose to also listen or people that they turn to for emotional support or even emotional challenge. Emotional challenge is a healthy form of support that I go to, Ken, because I just he challenges me to think about things in a perspective that I wouldn't go to on my own. Same thing with task, a task appreciation task challenge. I give Ken this paper because I know the way he looks at it. He can provide me ideas that I wouldn't normally get from my style of writing. But shared social reality, they go to people that kind of know their reality. So we found, for instance, student veterans may go to another student veteran because they know they only have to get halfway through a sentence

Ken White

Yeah.

Dr. Kelly Crace

and the other person knows exactly what their experience is. They get it. So what we found is that that they thought of encouragement in a multilayered way. And we also found that it wasn't necessarily like if you didn't have the support you need, they would actively seek to cultivate it.

Ken White

Mmm.

Dr. Kelly Crace

And what we found it was that process of cultivation that was that avoided burnout, not the actual attainment of it. It's wasn't that oh, I have to get my network in place. We found that if every day I am intending to, one, give encouragement to someone and seek encouragement from someone, just that process alone of cultivating your network helps avoid burnout.

Ken White

Step into something healthy every day.

Dr. Kelly Crace

And I love that metaphor stepping in because that is that kind of mindful notion of step into purpose every day, step into enjoyment every day, step into encouragement, and then step into something healthy. And the reason why that's so critically important is we have to be intentional to step into healthy self-care because if we're not intentional, we tend to step into soothing. That's what we that's where we tend to go, especially in burnout conditions, because it's so hard, it's so stressful. We are wearing down. It's just a natural tendency for us to want to soothe. And there's nothing wrong with that per se. Nothing bad happens. The problem is the intentionality. And actually, the behavior can look the same. But when I intend to soothe, my intention is to feel better, and when my intention is to feel better, I'm trying to change brain chemistry as quickly as possible. I'm trying to change a mood from feeling bad to feeling good. And what I'll do is there's only five ways you can change brain chemistry really quick, and that's really quickly, and that is food, drugs, sex, pain, and compelling entertainment. That's where we go. That's what changes brain chemistry the quickest. And there's nothing wrong with that. Even like the pain of exercise, there's nothing wrong with those five things. The problem is when we intend to soothe, we don't manage those things well. We don't moderate them well. In fact, we kind of check out to where I can the example I gave with the Flex MBAs is we kind of we check out to the point where, you know, these two sugar cookies were absolutely delicious. I ended up eating twelve, and I don't even remember the last ten that I ate. It's just a dissociation where we're trying to check out and soothe. Instead, we found that people that flourish, they're mindful about stepping into something healthy.

Ken White

Umm-mmm.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Let me do something today that's healthy for me. Now, sometimes some of the healthy things also make us feel better, too. That's just a bonus. And so the consequence or the outcome of going out for a run and it also helping and also I do feel better. That's just a bonus that is great to celebrate and enjoy, but it can't be the reason you do it. The reason has to be healthy self-care. Let me step into something healthy today.

Ken White

And then, the fifth step, you mention how to process outcomes.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Yes. Yeah. Part of that healthy thing. And this is actually kind of the second part of the fourth step. The second part of the fourth step is what we found to really be healthy is also how you're thinking about your experiences in the day. And we found that most people that flourish are very verb focused, whereas, in burnout conditions, we tend to be noun focused, we tend to focus on the outcomes of the day. Are we getting things done? What did I experience? How did it go? Did it go well? Did it go bad, and we'll define our day by the outcomes? It was a good day. I had good outcomes. It was a bad day. I had bad outcomes. People that flourish do something very differently, they become very verb focused. They focus on behaviors and processes. We've all in the athletics world we've all heard that analogy of process over outcome and that type of thing. And we've heard a lot that a lot about that. But it's actually purposeful process that matters. And so it's about stepping into purpose, but it's engaging and defining your success by the engagement in those verbs. So when I'm engaging in something that matters, the success of it is my actual engagement in it. Now, based on the outcome that just impacts our mood of the day. So if I define my success by stepping into a verb such as learning or expressing what I've learned or relating or healthy self-care, that's my success. If it goes well and the world cooperates that that's just a bonus. That's a great day. And if the world beats us up for that, well, we're going to feel that we can say at the end of the day, well, I'm disappointed because I worked hard for something and didn't get it. That's okay. The people that flourish only see that as a mood. They define their worth by the engagement in those verbs.

Ken White

And you said that the processing of outcomes. Is that step four A, or is that step five?

Dr. Kelly Crace

That's step four B. Four A is healthy self-care, and four B is one of the ways to be most healthy is the perspective of how you're entering the day. And that's be more verb focused, process-oriented

Ken White

Got it.

Dr. Kelly Crace

instead of noun focus, which is outcome-oriented. And then the last one is really it's really the most critical one because it's the most neglected and the most neglected one is people that flourish will take a minute at the end of every day. And value and appreciate where they stepped into those other four things, they don't do it. I mean, they don't go into a lotus position and reflect for 30 minutes of self-love. Again, it can be a brushing the teeth moment. At the end of the day.

Ken White

Wow.

Dr. Kelly Crace

They'll take the time and really value. Where did I step into purpose? Where did I step into encouragement, to enjoyment, into healthy self-care? And they take a moment to appreciate that. The reason for that is that's the transformational process that transforms purpose into meaning. Purpose is more motivational, meaning is more reflective. And so if we'll take the time to reflect on where we engaged in things that mattered to us, that actually transforms purpose into meaning. And what we found is the secret is when people believe that they are living meaningful lives, they don't burn out. They are able to kind of sustain the stress and the challenges of the day because they still feel like they are owning the day, or they are mostly in control. I can't control what the world has handed me, but I can control the fact that I'm living a meaningful life, and that is enough to prevent burnout. 

Ken White

All five steps. Do we need to embrace every day? Can we do one or two or three?

Dr. Kelly Crace

Sure. I mean, we're human beings. And so it's simple. We found that as a package, they work synergistically. So so as a package, it's best to be able to be mindful of all of those because they are interdependent. I can't. I can't really reflect on meaning at the end of the day if I haven't started with purpose.

Ken White

Right.

Dr. Kelly Crace

And so you want to try as best you can. But again, this is hard. It's so simple. There's nothing about flourishing that's complex. It's just really hard to do in the relentlessness of our world. And so what I don't want people to do is, you know, I failed today because I only did three of the five steps. Now it's about admiring your courage and embracing the courage that if I'm stepping into something that's right and hard, that actually is what is courageous. And whenever I step into hard, that's growth-producing. So if every day I'm trying to step into these things and I'm trying to do this in a growth perspective, you'll move forward. It'll be forward moving. It just works optimally when you can try to package all five together. And the nice thing about it is all five of those intentions. They just take a couple of minutes. Remember, we're talking about mindful intentions. So it's directing your energies. It's consecrating your energy. It's kind of dedicating my energies toward this. That doesn't take very long in and of itself. It's just hard to carry it out.

Ken White

Well, that's our conversation with Dr. Kelly Crace, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. There is no better time than the present to pursue an MBA. If you're thinking about it, pursue one that delivers a transformational experience. The William & Mary MBA four format's the Full-Time, the Flex or Evening Program, the Online, and the Executive MBA. Finally, we'd love to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest Kelly Crace, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White, wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week.

More Podcast Episodes

 Dawn Edmiston
Dawn EdmistonEpisode 138: July 17, 2020
Personal Branding in the COVID-19 Era

Dawn Edmiston

Episode 138: July 17, 2020

Personal Branding in the COVID-19 Era

You have control regarding the way you're perceived and positioned by others. Your personal brand tells people what you offer and how you're different from - and better than - your competition. In recent years, thanks in part to the continuously growing world of social and digital media building and especially promoting your personal brand has become easier than ever before. But with COVID-19, the personal branding landscape has changed somewhat. Our guest says the changes bring new opportunities to build your brand. Dawn Edmiston is a Professor of Marketing at William & Mary's Raymond A. Mason School of Business. She helps professionals and students create and promote their personal brands. She joins us on the podcast today to talk about personal branding, your value proposition, and how social media can help you build your brand in the era of COVID-19.

Podcast (audio)

Dawn Edmiston: Personal Branding in the COVID-19 Era TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What is the definition of a personal brand
  • Why is a value proposition important to a personal brand
  • How can one understand how they are perceived
  • How has COVID-19 affected personal branding
  • What are the benefits of technology to promote a personal brand
  • How important is LinkedIn to promoting a personal brand
  • Is it possible to have more than one brand
  • What is the power of video in promoting oneself
  • How should the different social media platforms be utilized
Transcript

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business. The podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. You have control regarding the way you're perceived and positioned by others. Your personal brand tells people what you offer and how you're different from and better than your competition. In recent years, thanks in part to the continuously growing world of social and digital media, building and especially promoting your personal brand has become easier than ever before. But with COVID-19, the personal branding landscape has changed somewhat. Our guest says the changes bring new opportunities to build your brand. Dawn Edmiston is a Professor of Marketing at William & Mary's Raymond A. Mason School of Business. She helps professionals and students create and promote their personal brands. She joins us on the podcast today to talk about personal branding. Your value proposition and how social media can help you build your brand in the era of COVID-19. Here's our conversation with Dr. Dawn Edmiston.

Ken White

Well, Dawn, thank you, it's great to see you. We're face to face. Isn't that nice?

Dawn Edmiston

Yes, that is lovely. Socially distanced. Yes, of course.

Ken White

I did pick the long rectangular table here in the studio so that the interview is being held appropriately. But thanks. It's really great to see you. And I hope you're well.

Dawn Edmiston

Thank you. Thank you. It's wonderful to be here.

Ken White

When I think personal branding, you're the first person I think of, and I know a lot of people in the business school here at William & Mary think the same, and others do too. When you hear the term personal branding, how do you define that? How do you describe that?

Dawn Edmiston

First, there is no greater compliment that you have given me than to have said that when you think of personal branding, you think of my brand. So thank you. I define personal branding as a systematic and intentional process of defining your value proposition and determining how you will share your value with others. So I like to think that my personal brand promise is that I teach people how to pursue and promote their passions. And so hopefully I'm doing that in this very moment with this podcast.

Ken White

Is it easy for people to identify their passions?

Dawn Edmiston

Great question. And I am often asked that when I am delivering guest lectures on the concepts if I do not have a passion, do I not have a personal brand? And that's not true. And personal brands. And that can evolve with you. But you do need a direction. And if you do not determine your direction, it will be interpreted by others. There's a statement that in this digital environment, that information online implicitly brands people, whether or not they choose to explicitly brand themselves. So even if you do not have a passion, consider a direction, and that will be one step further in developing that personal brand.

Ken White

And it sounds like you're also saying if you don't tell your story, maybe someone else will.

Dawn Edmiston

That's the truth. Yes, that that is. And you need to think about your personal brand as a value proposition as I had said. And if you're not able to define it, typically, personal brands need to include both an internal perspective and an external perspective. So if you're not yet ready to give that internal perspective, if you're not ready yet to determine this is the passion that I need to pursue, then start with the external perspective. Meet with family and friends, colleagues that know you and ask them to give you three words that describe you and then ask them to give you three statements of what they believe is how you have contributed value in their lives, either in personal or professional lives. And that will help move you towards understanding. This is how I'm perceived. Now, how you are perceived and how you want to be perceived may be two very different things, but you always need to have that customer-centric focus. And so by getting that external perspective, that might help you define from an internal perspective, how it is you want to position yourself in the marketplace.

Ken White

So you create that brand, and then you deliver on that promise. Right.

Dawn Edmiston

Yes, yes.

Ken White

That's pretty important.

Dawn Edmiston

Yes. Yes. And I often get asked the first questions are about social media and the promotion element. But as you and I have discussed before, do not think about the promotion until you've actually thought about the development of your brand and be intentional about it. And then we can start discussing once you have that personal brand promise. How do we execute it? Who are the individuals that may gain value from what I have to share? And then how do we ensure that we promote it, that we communicate our value to reach those that may need our products and services?

Ken White

COVID-19 is everything seems to be upside down. Life is just so, so different now. It seems like some personal branding opportunities are lost right now, especially face to face interaction. How is this current arena affected personal branding?

Dawn Edmiston

I mean, COVID-19, has changed our entire lives. And from both a personal and professional perspective. But change can be good. And for a marketing professor who has taught digital marketing for the past decade or so. It has been very good because if you were not focused upon digital marketing in the past, it becomes an imperative now. And fortunately for us. There are plenty of social media platforms and digital marketing opportunities, where we can continue personal branding. So as much as I value and I appreciate being able to see you face to face today, I could also see you face to face through technologies.

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Dawn Edmiston

And I could also ensure that I'm sharing and communicating my value through digital channels. And in most respects, I can meet, reach far greater number of individuals through digital channels than I ever could through Face-To-Face channels. So once we get past the anxieties that are associated with change, then perhaps we will soon be on the other side.

Ken White

Yeah.

Dawn Edmiston

And we will be excited about the opportunities that exist within this change, especially relative to personal branding and digital marketing channels.

Ken White

I don't know that that newcomers to personal branding, realize how powerful the digital side is until they see someone post maybe something really small in LinkedIn and just see it take off. Thousands and thousands of years.

Dawn Edmiston

Yes, yes.

Ken White

Amazing, isn't it.

Dawn Edmiston

Yes, it is. And people seek those personal connections. And. And again, you and I. I've had the privilege of doing podcasts with you in the past around the power of LinkedIn and personal branding. But when you think of LinkedIn, it's not just a job networking platform. In fact, a few years ago, a very powerful organization named Microsoft purchased LinkedIn because they really wanted access to the individuals that used LinkedIn to understand, gain data insights about these individuals. And so, they worked to create LinkedIn as a professional development platform.

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Dawn Edmiston

So it's not just focused upon connecting individuals relative to jobs, although that's a very important function, especially in the current environment. But it's also where you can build relationships and powerful relationships. And in fact, I'm often surprised at LinkedIn posts that I make that tend to be more personal, that literally have achieved hundreds of thousands of views.

Ken White

Yeah.

Dawn Edmiston

People are cheering for you. People want you to do well. People want to recognize professional excellence and want to recognize the grit and the grace that we need to work through this world. And LinkedIn is a good place to be able to share those experiences.

Ken White

Yeah, it's not hard to hit a thumbs up, is it?

Dawn Edmiston

No, it is not. Yes. Yes.

Ken White

So you create the value proposition. You get the information that people help you create your brand. You're delivering on that brand promise. And you do want to branch out, as you say and you say digital and social channels is LinkedIn the first place that people should consider.

Dawn Edmiston

It is the first place perhaps people should consider. But it's not the only place.

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Dawn Edmiston

I do typically use LinkedIn as a starting point. And with Microsoft's acquisition, LinkedIn has become far more robust than it had been. In fact, you're now able to embed videos and projects. And, you know, a decade ago, we might have been encouraging individual students to develop blogs and blog posts.

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Dawn Edmiston

You can now do that on LinkedIn and have a far greater audience than you might have in the past. So LinkedIn has become a very powerful community. And I find as a professor; it's the way I stay connected with students and alumni as well as individuals with whom I've worked. And I just never underestimate the power of those connections. At this point now, I've been in higher education for more than two decades. There is not a single day that passes that I do not hear from a former student or a professional colleague that LinkedIn has had a positive impact in their lives.

Ken White

Yeah, no doubt.

Dawn Edmiston

And so that that feels good. And I want to be able to share that with others. But again, it's not the only platform.

Ken White

Right.

Dawn Edmiston

And for certain individuals, for example, if you're creative, you might want to have a creative portfolio, although you can embed a link to that creative portfolio on LinkedIn.

Ken White

Yeah.

Dawn Edmiston

You should have an Instagram account. You know, those accounts of social media platforms that are more creative, visual, compelling, or perhaps where you want to focus your efforts. But then LinkedIn can complement those efforts.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Professor Dawn Edmiston in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If you're thinking about pursuing an MBA, consider William & Mary. Whatever your stage of life, whether you're completing your bachelor's degree or you have 30 years of work experience, the William & Mary MBA will transform you. Four different formats, including the full time, the evening, the online, and the executive. The William & Mary MBA will change and improve the way you think, the way you lead, and the way you live. Just ask any of our alumni. Now back to our conversation on personal branding in the COVID-19 era with Professor Dawn Edmiston.

Ken White

In our gig economy, I've run into so many people that have their job, their career, their vice president of whatever. They're the director of this, but boy, they would love to branch out over here and do something different. How do you do that with your brand and the promotion of your brand when you're more than one thing, and most of us seem to be more than one thing today?

Dawn Edmiston

That is a great question. I just recently contributed to a new book called Go to Market Strategies for Women Entrepreneurs, and women tend to be very active in the gig economy.

Ken White

Yeah.

Dawn Edmiston

So they may have a full-time job. They may care for their families, and then they may have an additional job to help supplement the income to support the family. And in most, if not all instances, your personal brand, to a certain extent, does need to be consistent. You can be a renaissance man or woman, but that brand should still be consistent across those various ventures. So, for example, I would never encourage you to have two LinkedIn profiles. For example, have one LinkedIn profile that captures the essence of who are, your diverse interests, the various organizations in which you are involved. But then you can have multiple company pages that are connected. So you can have a company page for your gig, as well as being connected to the company in which you have your full-time role. And of course, you could have and should have websites and social media platforms that serve different target markets depending on the different gigs you might have.

Ken White

Hmm-mmm

Dawn Edmiston

But relative to your personal brand, it is important to be authentic and do not confuse your personal brand with the products and services that you deliver.

Ken White

That's great advice. I mean, if someone is other audience-centric, their audience-centric, no matter what they do.

Dawn Edmiston

Yes.

Ken White

Right. Yeah, that's interesting because I have people have asked me, what do you think about if I have these two identities out there and what an interesting answer. Yeah. Wow.

Dawn Edmiston

To your point, you have coined the phrase around here, which I love, which is own it, and individuals need to own it. They need to own their personal brand no matter what other brands. That may encompass. But they do need to own their personal brand and then focus on the products and services and the target markets where you want to deliver those products and services. But do those in through channels and through media that are specific to those target markets, but retain that personal brand that continues to provide that authenticity to what you do.

Ken White

You mentioned a little while ago video, and I know you often encourage your students and people you counsel. Try some video and put some real I mean, boy, some of these student projects I've seen, you know, from the MBA students they're putting themselves out there. Can you tell us about some of these video projects you've seen?

Dawn Edmiston

Yes, it is one of the greatest rewards they have for teaching. And for those of you that are listening, you can access the perfect pitch videos that we have created by simply doing a quick search on my name on YouTube. And I have all of the perfect pitch videos there under my channel. And as you said, they are just brilliant.

Ken White

They are.

Dawn Edmiston

And in this current market environment, video is often how we're connecting with one another. We, as humans, are very visual, and we need that. We need those cues and being able to use video to share our emotions, and our experiences are far more relevant and persuasive than simply having that traditional piece of paper that we know as a resumé,

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Dawn Edmiston

Important tool, but being able to have this perfect pitch video that explains the value of that resumé is as good as it gets. And so now I encourage my students as well. Not only do they have the perfect pitch videos on YouTube, but embed it into your LinkedIn profile.

Ken White

I've seen them. They've sent them to me.

Dawn Edmiston

Yes.

Ken White

It's incredible.

Dawn Edmiston

Yes.

Ken White

And some of these you think I not I'm not a production expert. Some of these are shot on iPhones. They're edited on iPhones. You'd never know.

Dawn Edmiston

Yes, you do not need to be a professional and to your point. Yes. We have these mobile devices that allow us to do productions that we could have never potentially even considered a decade ago. And people just want to be able to connect with you.

Ken White

Yeah.

Dawn Edmiston

People want to be able to understand your character, your drive. In fact, during the pandemic, I actually cannot count the number of times that I have been contacted by an employer asking for an intern or a new hire. And I've simply sent them LinkedIn profiles of students with the video embedded, encouraging them to watch them. And every single time, those students are hired

Ken White

Yeah.

Dawn Edmiston

and I get comments back from the employer stating how much they enjoyed getting that perspective,

Ken White

Yeah.

Dawn Edmiston

getting that insight, and they're 60 seconds. I think the perfect pitch video is a 60-second video. You need to be clear and concise about your value proposition. And the video allows you to control your message and control the media environment and be able to share that value proposition very effectively.

Ken White

It is such a cool project in watching them to me. I walk away saying, oh, that's what makes that individual tick.

Dawn Edmiston

Yes.

Ken White

That's what makes them differentiated and a little better than maybe another person in that field. It's not even so specific into what they do. Like you said, if you want to have multiple projects, it's that consistency of what you offer. Those come across in the videos. They're so fun and so creative.

Dawn Edmiston

Yes.

Ken White

So, yeah, and once you see someone else do it, you think, well, okay, maybe maybe I could, right.

Dawn Edmiston

And you definitely could. And again, I mean, being able in this environment, you had asked an earlier question about how COVID-19 has changed our lives. And more than ever, we want that connectedness, and we want to be able to share our stories. And video allows us to do just that. So perhaps in addition to LinkedIn, I might also recommend you to have a YouTube channel

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Dawn Edmiston

and that would allow you to share experiences that you have in a visual manner that you would not be able to do as well through the LinkedIn platform.

Ken White

Well, that leads me to my next question. We have a few minutes left. What I'd like to do is mention an outlet. And if you would, give us a few words on why that's a good outlet or who that outlet might be good for. And we already talked about LinkedIn. So that's sort of a basic Instagram. Who should consider that? Which professionals?

Dawn Edmiston

Instagram, if you are creative, professional of your visual, professional. If you are an individual that has a very strong brand focus. So if you're not perhaps selling consumer packaged goods, but if you're selling services. Definitely, Instagram is a good visual tool, although I will tell you that there are certain consumer packaged goods like Oreos

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Dawn Edmiston

that have done wonders in social media. So, again, very visual tool capture the moment and be able to share it.

Ken White

Twitter.

Dawn Edmiston

Twitter is good for quick conversations. I find Twitter especially effective when you are discussing particular topics or at particular events. I tend to use Twitter more often when I'm even when I'm in virtual events these days. This is how we communicate. This is how we chat. This is how we remain connected. Quick, quick communication tool does not have the staying power relative to messages that LinkedIn does. So that is, but quick connection used whether to drive to other platforms.

Ken White

Blogging.

Dawn Edmiston

Blogging still very powerful, no longer perhaps as necessary to have your own personal blog. But blogs now we have a feature on LinkedIn where you can create and post articles just as you with a blog, embed videos and links and content. And very powerful to be able to share through LinkedIn. But you can also do video blogs. And those have become very compelling as well. And I would encourage individuals. Yes, relative to blogs. And again, in this current market environment, if you're not working, blogs can be a great way to capture what you've been learning or what you'd like to learn more about and share your knowledge with others.

Ken White

For professionals YouTube or Tick-Tock.

Dawn Edmiston

YouTube.

Ken White

Why?

Dawn Edmiston

YouTube because it just happens to be owned by Google, and it's considered by many to be the second-largest search engine in the world. So in marketing, it's all about language. It's all about understanding who you want to reach and speaking their language and using the words that they would use to describe your value proposition. So when you look at a tool like YouTube that has such great searchability, it's important to be there from not only a visual perspective but also from the perspective that you can be searched and found.

Ken White

Right. Is Facebook appropriate for professional?

Dawn Edmiston

It depends. In many entrepreneurial organizations, Facebook is a great place to create more of a close community.

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Dawn Edmiston

Now, once students graduate, they often connect with me as alumni. And so I have more of a community. You're going to see my dogs, you know, post my animals posted in my Facebook world. You will not have that in LinkedIn. Again, you don't necessarily ever want to post and share in social media images that or words that would be inconsistent with your brand. But I tend to use Facebook for personal purposes. But it can be very effective for building communities and especially for organizations that might be smaller startup organizations. So I would encourage you to have both a Facebook site as well as a LinkedIn profile and a YouTube channel.

Ken White

Hmm-mmm. As we move into, continue to deal with COVID-19 if we if the listener hasn't been doing a whole lot with a personal brand, what's the final message you'd like to share with them as we're moving into the future?

Dawn Edmiston

Now's the time. And when you are thinking about developing your personal brand, you need to be thinking about the value proposition that you can share with others. Very often, when we start to use language, you we start to define ourselves by the positions we've held or the titles that we've been called. And honestly, that's not that important. So if you happen not to be working at the moment and you had to find your personal brand by where you had worked, you know, now is your chance to create your own personal brand and understand what it is that you really want to do and develop language around that and be able to share that with others so that you can start living the life that you had wanted to, perhaps that you might not have even known that you wanted to prior to the pandemic. But this is a really wonderful chance for many of us to hit the reset button and to move forward in a way that we know cannot even imagine before.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Professor Dawn Edmiston. And that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If you're thinking about pursuing an MBA, pursue one that delivers a transformational experience. The William & Mary MBA four formats the full time, the evening, the online, and the executive MBA. Finally, we'd love to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest Dawn Edmiston, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White, wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week.

More Podcast Episodes

 Brad Franc
Brad FrancEpisode 137: July 1, 2020
The Succession Solution

Brad Franc

Episode 137: July 1, 2020

The Succession Solution

Seventy percent of all businesses fail to survive past the first generation of business owners. One reason for the failures is the lack of a succession plan. Our guest today says not only should family and closely-held businesses have succession plans, but creating one greatly increases the odds of a successful leadership handoff and a bright future for the business. Brad Franc is the author of "The Succession Solution: The Strategic Guide to Business Transition." He's an attorney, entrepreneur, and business strategist who has helped countless businesses make positive leadership transitions. He joins us today to talk about succession planning and the system he created that guides businesses through this important step.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • How is business succession defined
  • What are the different types of succession
  • What does not count as a succession plan
  • How did Brad get into succession planning
  • Why did Brad write his book
  • What are the six stages of succession
  • How long should a success plan take to create
  • The importance of having a template for succession
Transcript

Brad Franc: The Succession Solution TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business. The podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Seventy percent of all businesses fail to survive past the first generation of business owners. One reason for the failures is the lack of a succession plan. Our guest today says not only should family and closely-held businesses have succession plans, but creating one greatly increases the odds of a successful leadership handoff and a bright future for the business. Brad Franc is the author of The Succession Solution: The Strategic Guide to Business Transition. He's an attorney, entrepreneur, and business strategist who's helped countless businesses make positive leadership transitions. He joins us on the podcast today to talk about succession planning and the system he created that guides businesses through this important step. Here's our conversation with Brad Franc.

Ken White

Well, Brad, it's nice to see you again. Thanks for joining us and for sharing your time and your expertise with us today.

Brad Franc

Oh, thank you. And I appreciate the opportunity.

Ken White

Let's just jump right into it. Succession. What is that? How do you define it?

Brad Franc

Yeah, that's a great question, because it goes all over the place. The way I view succession it is the preparation, execution, and review of the transfer of either ownership of the company or management of the company. Although I will say this. There are also three types of succession. There is a succession of knowledge. There's a succession of management and ownership. So whether you are trying to teach the next generation how to do things, that's knowledge. Right. But the formal succession planning process is you develop a plan. You execute on that plan. You see how it's going. And then you iterate just like any business does.

Ken White

What is succession not? How do you people sometimes get confused?

Brad Franc

Succession is not your estate plan. Succession is not tax planning. Succession is how do I void my creditors, slash in-laws from getting any of these assets? Those are specific tactics that might come into play with succession. But if someone thinks that their succession plan is found in their will or their power of attorney, the likelihood of a successful transfer is not very high.

Ken White

How did you get into this? What what what what attracted you to succession planning?

Brad Franc

Well, for about 25 years, I've worked with closely held business owners, and I've seen them struggle with the transfer. And I also found there were two camps, Ken. There were the psychiatrist, psychologist that talked about the emotional issues. And then there were the tax lawyers swinging the nine hundred pound tax hammer. And there didn't seem to be any strategic process, thought process. And I brought those two together because they do a lot of strategic planning and some of the business I've run, and I put strategic planning into that process. And remarkably, I found a lot of success with it.

Ken White

Why do so many people struggle? That's the exact work you used was struggle? What? Where's that come from?

Brad Franc

Yeah, there are lots of reasons. But when I was writing the book, it was very interesting as to why people the reason people fail. It really came as a surprise to me. Less than 15 percent of the time, it had to do with taxes or some type of technical planning issue, creating a trust. That wasn't it. Twenty-five percent of the time, it was an ill-prepared successor. The next person is not ready. Right. But 60 percent of the time. 60 percent of the time, there's a failure. It's due to lack of communication and trust. So I am engaged right now, and a telecommunication company that is primarily family control and they can't get on the same page. So it's not that they're bad people, they just can't communicate very well. And so the main reason is communication. There are lots of other reasons, Ken. For instance, the founder doesn't want to give up control. A great line I once heard the CEO of a company told me I'm going to go from he's the man to who's he. A lot of psychology behind it as well.

Ken White

Interesting. Yeah. Way deeper than I think most people think. There's a lot to this, isn't there?

Brad Franc

That's right. That's right. That's why it's it's hard because there are a lot of disciplines that you need to bring to bear in order for this to work, both from a legal tax, accounting, business, talking to the employees. And that's why I believe the process that I've developed at least brings in the lion's share, if not all of those issues, to help formulate a plan.

Ken White

Why did you write the book?

Brad Franc

In law school, one of my law school professors once told me writing is the highest form of thinking. And I thought I had this process down. But I wanted to prove it to myself. I am one of those slow thinkers. And so I wrote the book one to prove it to myself and to help people because I saw so many business owners struggle with this thing. They don't have to engage me. I believe they can take this book and use it to help them with their succession plan.

Ken White

We've got an intelligent audience. The listeners to our podcast get it. They understand business and leadership. And I bet a high percentage of them could write books with about their own area of expertise. But it's tough writing a book. How did you do it? You're busy. I mean, wow. Yeah, a lot of balls in the air. How did you pull it off?

Brad Franc

It is I will not kid you. It is very hard. And another great, great quote I once heard. There are no unrealistic goals, only unrealistic timeframes. And so I thought I could do this in six months to a year. It ended up being a four-year project. And what I did, I disciplined myself to every Saturday, a fair amount of Sunday's sitting down. I created an outline. I thought this is what it looked like. And I took one chapter at a time.  And I think it was Stephen King who said, I write 250 words a day or whatever the case may be. So was one of those situations. I got it in a very rough form. I took it to a retired law school professor as an editor. She ripped it apart from an editorial standpoint, and I probably edited it and reviewed it about 30 times. And then, interestingly, Amazon has a self-publishing process that I think is real handy. Where you can pick and choose how you want to use this promote it market it. And so I went through the Amazon route, and I'm happy to report. I know it sounds a little self-serving, but it was the number one seller on Amazon in four business categories.

Ken White

If you wouldn't have said it, I would. Yeah. It's worth it. All that discipline, it paid off. So congratulations. The book is done well, and it's been a little over a year now.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Brad Franc in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If you're thinking about pursuing an MBA, consider William & Mary. Whatever your stage of life, whether you're completing your bachelor's degree or you have 30 years of work experience, the William & Mary MBA will transform you. Four different formats, including the full time, the flex, the online, and the executive. The William & Mary MBA will change and improve the way you think, the way you lead, and the way you live. Just ask any of our alumni. Now back to our conversation with the author of The Succession Solution, Brad Franc.

Ken White

In the book, The Succession Solution, you talk about six stages of succession. Let's walk through those. The first one you called purpose. Can you explain that?

Brad Franc

Yeah. Yeah. The purpose stage is getting to the foundational aspect of an organization. What are the principles, the values that make up the company? It becomes the culture. You know, how do you define the culture of the company? Because Ken, there will be disagreements along the way. And if you go back to what are our core fundamental principles? If you can establish that, you can pretty much test any succession plan against that. Then I say, OK, if that's your core principles, where do we want to go? That ultimate vision. Right. Which you'll never get to. But it's way out there. So there's a point of reference. And then if you've got the principles and you know where you want to go. Another question is why. Simon Sinek, you know, getting to why.

Ken White

Hmm-mmm

Brad Franc

If you can answer the why, that gives you the strength to keep going. You know, I once had a business owner, didn't have any family member, but his employees were key. He wanted to make sure the employees were protected. Every time we stumbled, I said, Jim, what's this about? He says, thank you, right. And then I say, what does failure look like? Nothing motivates people like fear. So if we get it wrong. So that's the first stage is the purpose stage.

Ken White

And then you move on to discovery.

Brad Franc

Right. And the example I give is, you know, you got to know where you are to know where you're going to get to. My belief is that if you know where you are, and you know where you want to get to, then you've got the road map. The joke that I give is there's a local mall in our community. And I hate going to the mall, and I don't know where anything is. And so what's the first thing I do when I walk in the mall? I look for that big kiosk for the red dot. Where am I? And that's how we start.  And I find that lots of business owners don't know where they are. There will maybe directing their ownership to a place they don't want to go to. So we kind of do a discovery in that situation. That's the next stage.

Ken White

Interesting. Then after purpose and discovery, you move on to challenge, which sounds like a SWOT analysis to some extent.

Brad Franc

Very good. It's very similar to a SWOT analysis. We have our strengths. There are opportunities. But most importantly, what I believe is another critical part of succession planning is identifying the obstacles. Another great book, The Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holiday. And again, I believe if you know where you are, and you know where you want to get to. The only thing that's stopping you is the obstacles. Otherwise, you'd be there. Right? So we have to find those obstacles because that's going to be the jet fuel that we'll use to move us forward.

Ken White

So now that you've identified those obstacles, you move on to the fourth stage, which is mission.

Brad Franc

Right. Again, I keep using quotes, but Bill Gates once said most people overestimate what they can do in a year. They underestimate what they can do in five. So I say to a business owner, hey, look, let's not worry about tomorrow. If we're sitting here three years from today, what would you like to see have happen with respect to your succession plan? Oh, that's easy. Three years it's so far. It gives them a little more. It removes some of the anxiety. So we list those things we want to do in three years. The obstacles we're gonna run into and the action steps we're going to take to overcome those obstacles.

Ken White

I could see that relieving the heat and the stress because three years does seem like quite a ways away, doesn't it?

Brad Franc

That's right, that's right.

Ken White

Yeah. Then it's on to the annual review.

Brad Franc

So the natural progression is, if this is what we want to do in three years, what do we want to do over the next 12 months? And once again, what are the action steps? Where do we need to watch that two by four that's going to come and hit us in the head? Right. Whether that's a family member, whether it's a key employee, whatever the case may be, we have to tackle this because these obstacles, they don't go away. Right. And so, you know, as I like to also say, you know when you start with truth and honesty, that's when you can make progress. So that's what we do. And we look at over the next 12 months.

Ken White

And then, the final step is the quarterly review.

Brad Franc

That's right. And so, you know, what we're trying to do is limited to three or four action steps. We want to do in the next 90 days. What's the saying? If you want to improve something, measure it. If you want to improve something exponentially, measure it, and report out. So what we do is we assign three or four tasks to a particular person. They don't have to do the work. They are accountable for showing up and reporting on the status. I like to say a plan without action is nothing but a dream, and action without a plan is nothing but a nightmare. So when I work with owners and I tell people this, don't do this unless you're willing to execute on the plan. Too many times, plans don't get executed. If you have a 90-day report in, then the likelihood of success increases.

Ken White

How long, and this may be an unfair question. How long does it generally take when you're working with someone?

Brad Franc

Ken, I normally ask people, don't hire me unless they're willing to work throughout the year meeting every 90 days? Because I believe it's usually around the third meeting. People like, oh, I see how it going first meeting your trying to figure things out. The second meeting, we're putting a little more to it. But normally it takes about a year. Can you do it quicker? You can. But the likelihood of failure increases. So that's normally what the process consists of.

Ken White

But in the mission stage, you've got the three-year goal. Can it also go that long as well?

Brad Franc

That's right. I mean, and what I find is people will ask me to come back, but I can, as I like to say, I can take the training wheels off, and they can work themselves. So I'll normally check-up every six months to a year if we have a continuing relationship.

Ken White

You and I talked earlier, long before we recorded, and you said, yes, my book, great. But find some template if you don't adopt yours. Right. That template, that game plan is important here, isn't it?

Brad Franc

You know, there in my research for my book, Ken, there was another book that looked at thirty-five hundred family businesses worldwide. And that was the one thing that they said where success was found, that they found the family business, where the business owners, family business found a process. And so it doesn't have to be my process, although I think it works. It can be anybody's process and stick to it.

Ken White

Now, you bring a business background. You bring a legal background. If someone is seeking help, what should they look for in someone who's going to guide them?

Brad Franc

Yes. I mean, I do think, unfortunately, it's multifaceted, and not everybody can do it. And that's why I think when you have the proverbial nine hundred pound tax hammer, you don't have that perspective. So I would look for a business owner that's been through the process or a consultant that's been through the process. I mean, I'm not suggesting you need to have all the background that I have, but maybe someone who has done it several times, that have seen various permutations, I tell people I'm much smarter than you. I just have seen this a hundred times, and I can bring that experience to bear.

Ken White

Is it an emotional process? A rewarding process? What's it like by the time it's all said and done?

Brad Franc

Yeah, know, that's a great question. It's a scary process because sometimes you go in the room and there are some angry people. It is extremely rewarding one at this end of the day you've actually helped people. And it is it's that's what drives me, is to help the business owner. You know, we all have our skill sets are unique abilities. And I just like working with business owners and helping.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Brad Franc, the author of The Succession Solution, and that's it for this episode of Leadership & Business. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If you're thinking about pursuing an MBA, pursue one that delivers a transformational experience, the William & Mary MBA. Four format's The Full Time, the evening or Flex, the Online, and the Executive MBA. Finally, we'd love to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest Brad Franc, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White, wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week.

More Podcast Episodes

 Bob Williams & Brian Baines
Bob Williams & Brian BainesEpisode 136: June 9, 2020
Civil Unrest & the CEO

Bob Williams & Brian Baines

Episode 136: June 9, 2020

Civil Unrest and the CEO

It's been over a week since the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis. Protests and demonstrators have taken place in cities across America. Business leaders and CEOs have responded in different ways. For example, the CEOs of Target, Wal-Mart, Microsoft, Lowe's, Apple, and Google were among the first CEOs to speak out following the nation-wide civil unrest. Other CEOs have remained silent. How should business leaders and CEOs respond? What roles and responsibilities does the CEO have in this case? We asked two of our colleagues from the William & Mary School of Business to share their expertise. First, Professor Bob Williams. He's a former longtime business leader and executive who now teaches leadership. Second Brain Baines. He's the business school's senior Human Resources partner - the Chief HR Officer. They join us to share their experience and thoughts regarding the ways CEOs should respond in difficult times.

Podcast (audio)

Bob Williams & Brian Baines: Civil Unrest and the CEO TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

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Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • How has the expectation of the CEO outside of business changed throughout the years
  • How has technology changed the role of the CEO
  • Do customers and employees want to hear from the CEO during times of civil unrest
  • What kind of message should a CEO convey to customers and employees
  • What actions should senior leadership take to address diversity and inclusion
  • Are monetary donations enough to effect change
  • How should CEOs use social media to distribute their message
  • What should a CEO avoid saying during times of civil unrest
  • How important is getting the message right the first time
  • Should CEOs worry about offending customers
Transcript

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business. The podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that help make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. It's been over a week since the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis. Protests and demonstrations have taken place in cities across America. Business leaders and CEOs have responded in different ways. For example, the CEOs of Target, Wal-Mart, Microsoft, Lowes, Apple, and Google were among the first CEOs to speak out following the nationwide civil unrest. Other CEOs have remained silent. How should business leaders and CEOs respond? What roles and responsibilities does the CEO have in this case? Well, we asked two of our colleagues from the William & Mary School of Business to share their expertise. First, Professor Bob Williams. He's a former longtime business leader and executive who now teaches leadership. Second Brian Baines, he's the business school’s senior human resources partner, the chief H.R. officer. They join us to share their experience and thoughts regarding the ways CEOs should respond in difficult times. Here's our conversation with Bob Williams and Brian Baines.

Ken White

Bob, Brian, thanks so much for sharing your time. We appreciate you being on the podcast. The first time for Brian but Bob, you've been on before, but thanks. Thanks very much to both of you for sharing your time and expertise with us today.

Brian Baines

Happy to be here.

Bob Williams

Glad to be here.

Ken White

Bob, you spent a number of years in the C Suite, and when you started in business, CEOs weren't really expected to address issues outside of the business. Am I right in that? And has that changed over the past few years?

Bob Williams

Yeah, I think it changed a lot. And I think you've characterized it well. I think the thing that's really been changed now with this advance, which is a blending of technology. You know, when guys like Jobs walked out onto the San Francisco stage, and I think it was 2009 showed that the iPhone really what he was telling is that everybody knows everything at the same time. And that was not characteristic of corporations and regardless of your size prior to that.  But now, with the movement of just your thumbs, you blow away any kind of insular material that might protect CEOs or protect senior management people from what is basically the truth of the situation. And that changed the role, the role of the C Suite, I think.

Ken White

Polarizing topics like the one we've been experiencing for the last eight, ten days. Should a CEO step up and say something to customers and employees and the general public, Bob?

Bob Williams

Yeah, I think they're obligated to do that. I think if and of course, I need to be very open about my position on something like that. I say that, but I think there's a lot of good things that are going on, and this is going to continue into this movement of diversity and inclusion. It is dramatic when you look at these crowds, for example, the death of this young man. Watch the MSNBC or FOX or CNN, and you see African-Americans. You see, Asians use the occasion. You see them supporting one another. This is really powerful and very important. And I don't think CEOs can do that because it's a reflection not to comment on that, because it is a reflection of their employee base in many cases. This is really important; we are in a reflection point on this.

Ken White

Brian, as the chief human resource manager. Do you want your CEO to speak up and speak out now?

Brian Baines

Definitely. We have a lot of employees and customers who are interested in knowing where a company stands in support and solidarity with people who are being affected by this. We have black and brown people, as the subject is right now, who are hurting, and they're not okay. We're going to work every day, and we're keeping on a smile because that's what's expected. But we need to know that our company stands behind us.

Ken White

Is there anything specific other than what you just said that a CEO can be saying right now is something as simple as we are thinking about you, we are behind you. Is that enough?

Brian Baines

Well, I think it needs to be a stronger message. I think that message needs to be it's not tolerated that, you know, we, in effect, are appreciative of the efforts of all people, but are brown people, are black people, those who are being affected at this moment. We stand behind them, and we support their efforts to seek equality and to seek, you know, basic human rights.

Bob Williams

Can I jump in on that?

Ken White

Yeah, please.

Bob Williams

I couldn't agree more with Brian's comment on that. I would add to this, you know, you could write some of the box and some of the reactions that many CEOs now go to the broadcast media with and television media and other forms of communication. I mean, you could write it easily because so many of them have said, you know, this is regrettable, this should not happen, et cetera, et cetera. But I don't think that's enough. I think what the CEOs of the senior management. So these companies have to do is say, look, I'm going to audit my task force. I've got to sit down with my H.R. director. I'm going to find out what our diversity quotient looks like. I'm got to find out how we decide on promoting people. I'm going to look at pay. I'm going to this whole movement, Ken, I think, is overlapping with this whole issue of diversity and inclusion. And CEOs and senior-level people have to stand up and say; I'm taking it further than just telling you. And they're right in saying this. I think you have to show empathy. But they have to go further than that now. People are looking for action. They're not looking for just a gauze to cover something like this. So I think CEOs need to really take a look with their human resource people and say, look, are we living to what the words are here? And if we're not, let's change things.

Ken White

It has been interesting to read through that because some are not saying anything. I'm sorry, Brian. Go ahead. What were you thinking?

Brian Baines

Yeah, I was going to agree with Bob there. You know, they need to look at the dynamics of their organizations and put together teams that are directly responsible for looking at, as Bob mentioned, diversity and inclusion and how the culture affects the people in your organization and start to make changes because, yes, the words are hollow without the action, the words are what are needed upfront. But then we have to effectively put a plan together and do things to make a change.

Ken White

And many of the words are, you know, it's frustrating to read some of them. Some of them are saying nothing. They're just statements. And you feel like saying, oh, you just wanted to be on social media. You just wanted to be included where there's others who are McDonald's, for example, throwing money. They're saying here; we're actually going to take money we're going to work with the NAACP, we're going to make donations here. We're moving things forward. What do you say, Bob, to that CEO who is a little reluctant to say something concrete?

Bob Williams

I think writing checks is good. I think cash is good. It's what the engine is that's going to allow you to make this big change maybe a little faster because you have the resources that you need. But I don't think that's enough either. I think you have to its behavior. We're talking about behavior here. I think that what we're going to have to look at is the culture of these companies. We've done all the right things in quotes. We've done all the right things. But have we actually lived our words? And that's a cultural thing, the way we do things around here if you use that as the definition of a culture is what has to be investigated, audited, looked at and changed if it's necessary to change.

Ken White

Some of those changes take time. And in a social media world, people are looking for quick results. So how do you communicate that Bob, that this is a longer-term strategy as opposed to I can give you something tomorrow?

Bob Williams

That's a key. That's a key point. On the one hand, the thing that social media has done is you can no longer obscure the truth and the reality of what employees are living in. It happens quickly, and it's so transparent. If CEOs and C Suite people want to really make a difference, they will use that to their advantage. They will use social media and the way they communicate. You use the word community. That is so key. The two words that are important in times like this for businesses, I think are communicate and collaborate. You have got to involve the employees in the changes that you make to make diversity and inclusion work the way they're supposed to work. You have to listen to these people that are in the streets, the people that are in your company. You have to establish two-way communications, which really with this technology is one of the great advantages is that you can have a discussion and not be there, but you can have the discussion. And that's something that's a tool which should be using.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Bob Williams and Brian Baines of William & Mary in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If you're thinking about pursuing an MBA, consider William & Mary whatever stage of your life, whether you're completing your bachelor's degree or you have 30 years of work experience. William & Mary School of Business offers MBA programs that will transform you, four different programs, including the full time, the flex, the online, and the executive. The William & Mary MBA will change and improve the way you think, the way you lead, and the way you live. Just ask any of our alumni. Now back to our conversation with Bob Williams and Brian Baines.

Ken White

Brian, if the CEO comes to your counterpart, the head of H.R., and says this is the message I want to send out to the employees. What don't you want the CEO to say? What is something? Is there anything they should avoid saying at this point in time?

Brian Baines

Yeah, I think so. And actually, the Harvard Business Review published the article, I think it's called U.S. Businesses Must Take Meaningful Action Against Racism. And they actually gave some good topics. But from my personal perspective, depending on who you are as a CEO, avoid saying, you understand because you don't understand. I am a black male, and I don't understand everybody's perspective. Everyone's experiences aren't like mine. And that's not to say that I have a better, you know, perspective than anyone else. That's just to say the things that I have had to go through in life are not as harsh as those that some other people's people have. So it's about letting people know that you hear what they're saying, that you want a better understanding and that you are looking to make a change. CEOs are a large group, and I'm sure many of them communicate with each other. So they have counterparts, and they can reach out to and get some thoughts on how to properly express their feelings. Many of them have communication specialists to help them write information out that will be suitable. But at the same time, they have to make sure that it is coming from the heart, that it's just not words on paper. They have to put a little bit of their self into the words that they write. But also, at the same time, stay away from things that can be even more polarizing and fan the flames of what's going on right now.

Ken White

With that said, and I'll ask both of you this and kind of put you on the spot. But is there a channel that's more one channel more appropriate than another channel in terms of who should it be? Email to employees. Should it be a video from the CEO to employees? Normally we can walk the halls. We can't do that right now. Mostly speaking, generally speaking. What's a good delivery? What's a good delivery tool or media channel for an important message like this to employees?

Bob Williams

I think it's all of those things. I think senior-level people need to walk around. They need to do what they can in terms of contacting their employees. If that's by video, if that's by email, if that's by giving them a voice on Zoom, they should do it, and they shouldn't do it once and not say, see, I did that. They should do that on a consistent, frequent basis. They should, to Brian's point, form task groups of employees and let their ideas flow to the CEOs and to the C suite and then not let them die. Use those communication vehicles and say to them, look, we heard from this task force. These were follow. These following things are problems. I want to share with you that this idea is not one I totally agree with, but this idea is awesome. This idea is something that we are going to work on. And you keep that dialogue going through all media, not just through a singular media because what we're watching is a lack of communication. I mean, Martin Luther King said it beautifully. And I heard this one of the commentators that was covering the Atlanta gathering's followed a gathering. And it wasn't a riot. It was just a group of people expressing their First Amendment rights. But he's quoted Martin Luther King when he said when you watch something like this or you were involved in something like this, you are watching the unheard finding a voice. And I thought that's just a great capture. And if you're going to answer that voice, you've got to do it through every medium at your disposal. 

Brian Baines

Right.

Ken White

Brian, from the H.R. standpoint, what about the channels to reach employees?

Brian Baines

From an H.R. standpoint, you have to understand the demographics of your employees because not everyone is going to receive information the same way. Some people aren't on email. Some people are text message people. Some people are actual hard copy to the home letter people. So you have to employ those multiple mediums in order to get the message out. And like Bob said, you have to say it more than once. But what's important is that the first time you say it right. Because there are no new take backs. Any apologies you make after the statement that you initially put out are just they fall on deaf ears, people, you lost the confidence of your people once you put out a statement that harms more than helps. And, you know, it's very important that they speak up. CEOs and company heads speak up because what people will tend to do is see the silence as acceptance of what's going on. And that's something that they definitely want to stay away from. Of course, there are people on both sides of the issue. There's always going to be people on both sides of the issue. But you want to take the approach of deciding which side the company is going to be on. Yeah, you may lose some customers or whatever down the way, but take Nike, for example. About a year ago, they put out a statement or rather a ad using Colin Kaepernick that had lots of people upset, burning the Nike products and things like that that they own. But also at the same time, they saw an increase in profits. So for those you lose, you probably will gain more people, or you may gain more people buying multiple products of yours or utilizing your services more often. So, you know, be on the right side of it is what you have to do. And that's the message that I think they have to get out and again through as many different avenues as they can.

Bob Williams

I think to the generations that companies are dealing with now from a recruitment standpoint, of an employee standpoint are different than they were, say, ten years ago, not only because of the fact but because of the way they feel about value. So if you're worried about offending a customer because your communication maybe not what they want to hear, I would say don't let that be a barrier to communicating. I would say, look, people are looking at value and more than just tradeoff between cost and price. They're saying, do I want to do business with this organization because of what it believes? So for a CEO to be put off and fearful that they'll offend somebody that's in their customer base. I think they need to get over that. I think what they need to say, well, what do I stand for? Does it have value? And if it has value, my customers will respect the fact that my company thinks this way. You can see it in the environmental movement. You can see it in sustainability. There are people in this generation, young people that won't do business with people and companies that don't respect the environment that don't respect sustainability. I think the same thing is true about human resources and human relations. People want to be respected. They want to be treated with equity and with fairness. And companies that are very good at communicating that they are doing that and they're serious about making that kind of a thing live are going to benefit from the customer base. They're not going to be threatened by it.

Brian Baines

Yeah, people have to take a tough look at their company if they're not making a statement. I've actually asked people on my personal network to explore new opportunities if their companies are refusing to make a statement and take a stand on this. You know because, again, people who are most affected by this, that is, in essence, saying that, you know, we're not here for you. Whether it's true or not, the lack of a voice from the company is harmful to the populations that work inside that organization.

Bob Williams

Right.

Brian Baines

That may be the next George Floyd or Ahmaud Arbery or Breonna Taylor or one of the many other people who have lost their lives or been harmed through injustice.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Bob Williams and Brian Baines. And that's our podcast for this week. Leadership & Business is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If you're thinking about pursuing an MBA, pursue one that offers a transformational experience. Check out the MBA programs at William & Mary, the full time, the flex, the online, and the executive. Finally, we'd love to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guests Bob Williams and Brian Baines, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White, wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week.

More Podcast Episodes

 Rajiv Kohli
Rajiv KohliEpisode 135: April 27, 2020
COVID-19: Returning to Normal

Rajiv Kohli

Episode 135: April 27, 2020

COVID-19: Returning to Normal

After several weeks of social distancing, virtual meetings, and shelter in place, most people are ready to go back: Back to work, back to their favorite restaurant, and back to normal. While we're ready, we don't know how long it will take, and what it will take before we can return to normal. Rajiv Kohli is the John N. Dalton Professor of Business at William & Mary. He's a leading scholar in health information technology and a healthcare expert. For over 15 years he's worked and consulted with several healthcare organizations. Kohli says before we can return to our pre-pandemic lives, certain events must take place. He joins us on the podcast to discuss what needs to happen in order for us to return to life as we knew it.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • What is the first step to getting back to normal
  • Why testing is so important
  • What is the most important preventative item someone can have
  • How long do we need to practice social distancing
  • What will a return to work look like
  • When will a vaccine be available
  • Which generation will adopt social confidence more easily
  • The negative effect of misinformation
  • How will regular life change after the pandemic
Transcript

Rajiv Kohli: Covid-19: Returning to Normal TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business. The podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that can make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Well, after several weeks of social distancing, virtual meetings, and shelter in place, most people are ready to go back, back to work, back to their favorite restaurant, and back to normal. But while we're ready, we don't know how long it'll take and what it will take before we can return to normal. Rajiv Kohli is the John N. Dalton Professor of Business at William & Mary. He's a leading scholar in health information technology and a health care expert. For over 15 years, he's worked and consulted with several health care organizations. Kohli says before we can return to our pre-pandemic lives, certain events must take place. He joins us on the podcast to discuss what needs to happen in order for us to return to life as we knew it. Here's our conversation with Dr. Rajiv Kohli.

Ken White

Rajiv, thanks for taking time to join us. I hope you're well and hope your family's well.

Rajiv Kohli

Thank you, Ken. Everything is going well. Thank you for having me.

Ken White

Yeah, well, you know, if we all agree to be conscientious citizens and I know a lot of people are. Wearing the masks, staying at home, washing our hands, practicing social distancing, that's great. But it's not enough. You say a number of things have to take place in order for us to get back to normal—things like testing.

Rajiv Kohli

Yes, testing is really the first step. That is what tells us where we are. That's like the inventory of the disease itself. So testing is very important for a number of reasons. First, we have to know who needs help. Second, testing helps us understand where the disease is located and who do we have to isolate. Or we have to self-isolate. It also is a measure of making sure that people who need help get help where they need help. And then it also gives confidence to other people saying that I know where the disease is and where it's not, and then I can continue with my normal routine. So, I see testing is really the first step to know what is going on.

Ken White

Right now, we're using 14-day isolation that that's just not cutting it right.

Rajiv Kohli

No, 14-day isolation is NATO's test, if you will, where we are saying we don't have a proper test. We'll let the nature tell us who has the disease, who does not. The trouble with that Ken is that thirty percent or so of the people who have the COVID-19 are asymptomatic, meaning they do not show symptoms, and they are walking around without knowing that they have the disease, and they may be spreading. So, by the time you find out up the 14-day period, they may have already spread that.

Ken White

You say we need to treat people who are very sick nationally and hot spots. Are we able to do that as a nation now?

Rajiv Kohli

Yeah, so that's really the second step along with the testing part is that after we find out that who has the coronavirus, they need help. Unfortunately, a percentage of those will be very sick and they will need help. Hospitals are prepping themselves for taking care of these patients with ventilators, ICU's and train staff I might add, in addition to the equipment, we need people who are able to provide care and use that equipment to answer your question. That's kind of spotty. Some places are saying that their numbers are manageable, meaning that they're not seeing a big surge. But we know other places like New York or Washington State, and increasingly a few other places in the country are seeing the kind of surge that they were worried about. Also, as of now, I think we are still kind of behind the eight ball in terms of having proper equipment, and that includes ventilators, personal protective equipment, things like sanitizers, masks, which is for the common public, a very important piece of this puzzle that helps us stay safe.

Ken White

Yeah, you said that was sort of step three was making sure that the public has preventative equipment. That's a bit of an issue, isn't it?

Rajiv Kohli

That's correct. So, step three is the public being protected, knowing who has the coronavirus, who does not, and then making sure that if we do come in touch with them or do, we interact with them, that we are protected. And the simplest and perhaps the most effective way is for everyone to have a personal mask, a disposable one, many of them. Each time they go out, they should have a new mask that they use, so and we don't have enough of those. On Amazon, the delivery period could be anywhere from three to four weeks, and they should be easily accessible. So, when I talk about the testing and the masks and PPE, what I also am implying in that is that not only are they available, but they're easily accessible to people. They don't have to go hunt for it. They don't have to go wait for it. So, can I get my mask, have them delivered tomorrow morning? If they are available, then we are in good shape.

Ken White

Yeah. You and I were talking the other day. We ordered masks in our family several weeks ago. They're supposed to come today. We're recording on Friday. Right before you and I logged on. I looked out the window, and a FedEx truck rolled up. And I'm really hoping it's that and not another delivery from Ulta or something that my daughter has ordered. So, fingers crossed.

Rajiv Kohli

How long-ago Ken did you order those?

Ken White

Ten days.

Rajiv Kohli

Okay, so that's not too bad.

Ken White

No.

Rajiv Kohli

But I would like it to be available overnight if I wanted them.

Ken White

Right. And like a lot of families, we created our own homemade masks, not knowing if they're any good. So, we're looking forward to the actual medical masks that we'd like to use for sure. You say the next step is social distancing must continue.

Rajiv Kohli

Yes. Social distancing is something that we've been practicing in a number of ways by self-quarantine. And when we do come face to face with someone, we stand across the street and have a conversation. It should continue because that is really our way of defending us and others that we are working with. That in case I am one of the 30 percent asymptomatic individuals who has COVID-19 but does not show any symptoms. So, we are protecting ourselves, each other from that disease. So that will continue and will have to continue. And I think it will become part of our day to day interactive behavior when we meet with other sort of like, you know, when you and I have a cold and I see you in a meeting, I said, Ken, I'm not going to shake your hand because I have you know, I have the sniffles. I think that will become more ingrained in our day to day lives, at least in the near future, where we will say just to be safe, let's keep this distance.

Ken White

Yeah, it was I just read a piece this morning on the Office of the Future, and everything was spread out, no doubt. Desks were spread out, doorways, and so forth.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Professor Rajiv Kohli of William & Mary in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If you're thinking about pursuing an MBA, consider William & Mary. Whatever your stage of life, whether you're completing your bachelor's degree or you have 30 years of work experience. William & Mary School of Business offers MBA programs that will transform you. Four different programs, including the Full-Time, Flex, Online, and Executive MBA. The William & Mary MBA will change and improve the way you think, the way you lead, and the way you live. Just ask any of our alumni. Now back to our conversation with Rajiv Kohli.

Ken White

Yeah, the next step you said, we'll probably see a rolling return to work.

Rajiv Kohli

Yes. The way I see the question is always, when will this be over?

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Rajiv Kohli

And then when we get back to work or the things that we were doing in our normal lives. I see this as a rolling return to work in the sense that there will be. Let's say if you were divided into four weeks, the first week, there will be essential people who need to be at work, will be at work, who are probably going to work once or twice a week right now, but they'll go on a daily basis and then followed by those individuals who have the option to work from home or would be more effective if they're at their desk. So that'd be the second wave. The third way will be people who were working from home could work from home, but they missed the interaction, and they are needed. And then finally, I think it will be the last quartile will be people who are a little bit more cautious who could do without being physically at work. And they will probably see three-quarters of their colleagues that say it's working for them. I'll get back to work too. I miss the interaction?

Ken White

Interesting. So, we need a 24-hour turnaround testing. We have to be able to treat people who are sick. We need the preventative equipment. Social distancing must continue when work returns. We'll do it on a rolling basis. But when you and I were talking the other day, you were saying the goal still remains we need a vaccine.

Rajiv Kohli

Absolutely. That is the final goal. But we know that in the best of cases, the vaccine is about twelve months away, and that is when everything goes well. Some of the previous experiences of vaccines had been years before they were properly tested and the trials were done, and they were deemed to be safe because one of the things that the medical community is very worried about is in the rush, as serious as this is, to get the vaccine to the public. They don't do more harm than they prevent the disease from spreading. Also, they will be absolutely sure before they will release that. And that estimate is about a year. Until that time, all the things that you described Ken are things that we will have to practice at different levels of our daily routines until we have the vaccine. And then it will be sort of like dealing with the annual flu.

Ken White

Yeah, so even when we all do go back, it will still be a very different place. And different interaction with one another.

Rajiv Kohli

It will be and one of the things that will determine that is what I call social confidence. Social confidence is a level of assurance that an individual must-have. And it's a kind of a conversation we have with ourselves by absorbing all the information around us. And we say to ourselves; I'm looking around, I'm not seeing any really bad cases. I'm seeing people actually leave the hospital. I had the conversation with my physician, and she's beginning to see patients. Life is kind of getting back to normal. And then that will give me the confidence to say, yeah, I can now interact in my social circle. But it also has the possibility that can swing the other way. If something comes on the news, you hear something in your local community, something bad happened. You know, somebody was didn't fit the profile of a high-risk patient had a serious illness and had to be in ICU. People will regress a little bit, and it will it'll take a toll on their confidence. So that is not so much based on the resources of testing and PPE and masks, and things like that we talked about that is more of a confidence that comes from inside, and that is dependent on what's happening around us.

Ken White

You see, a generation is playing a role in social confidence. I'm guessing younger folks might have a little more confidence then say someone who's older.

Rajiv Kohli

Yes, I see that already in my two kids who are in their 20s, they are a little more confident than us. They are a little more antsy and itchy to get out to see their friends. But I'm also seeing something that is very positive among the younger generation is that while they want to go out and they feel more confident from all the news reports that this is something that affects people who have underlying conditions, I'm very pleased that they are also very considerate. As I was talking to one of my colleagues who has two sons in their 20s on East Coast and West Coast, and I was asking them, are they home? And he said, no. They wanted to come home. We wanted them to come home. But they said, for your sake, mom and dad, we have got to stay where we are.

Ken White

Wow.

Rajiv Kohli

So that is also a good thing among the younger generation that while they are confident, they are being very considerate for other people who may not be at such a low risk as they are.

Ken White

Yeah, that's fantastic. You know you touched on one of the issues. There's so much conflicting information out there. Did you have any suggestions, any recommendations? Where in the world do people go?

Rajiv Kohli

Yeah. So that is one of my pet peeves. And each time I see something on TV or somebody in my own family talking about, I saw this on Facebook or I saw that on WhatsApp. And unfortunately, some of our leaders as well give us conflicting information. I squirm every time I see that because this sounds like an exaggeration Ken that the bad information that we tell someone that oh I read this on Facebook or what's happened and I saw this, I heard somebody say this. Is almost as bad as the contagion itself. So, the virus spreads. But we are also spreading misinformation, oftentimes not purposefully, but just because we read something. So, I tell the people that share or try to share misinformation, what I consider misinformation without a proper attribution from a good source

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Rajiv Kohli

not to talk about it, not to spread it, because it's very difficult to reel it back in once you spread that information. So, to answer your question, yes, we don't have one reliable source that people all people go to. Yes, we do have reliable sources like the CDC and the scientists. But there is also conflicting information coming from our politicians among people that we should trust otherwise. I would like people to be very careful about information that they consume and information that they share with others unless they can be sure that it came from a reliable source. And then, too, I would say, well, this is what I read at this source so they can verify it.

Ken White

So, all in all, if the steps you had talked about take place and we get there, we it'll end, so to speak, we'll get back it'll just a little bit different.

Rajiv Kohli

Yes, it will be quite different. And we are not even talking about the business side and the sociological side that will be different, there will be a lot of new changes, that we will see new developments. Many of them will be positive developments. We will see a greater use of technology. We will see different processes of how we interact. So, for example, I become a big fan of Instacart. So, I think we are going to keep it after all of this is over, because I think that's a great service. And I can use that time to be more productive in other ways. And I think similarly, people are going to discover new ways of doing things. I'm imagining a lot of telehealth, or mobile health will be people will be more comfortable with that. Yes, there are issues we'll have to address of security and privacy and all of that. So, yes, there will be a lot of changes, but I think we'll come through this. We will get back to life as we knew it slightly different. But we will be able to continue to do what we were doing and be more productive. I just worry about people who are trying to short circuit the process by jumping these steps that we just talked about.

Ken White

That's our conversation with Professor Rajiv Kohli, and that's our podcast for this week. Leadership & Business is brought to you by the William & Mary School of Business. If you're thinking about pursuing an MBA, pursue one that offers a transformational experience. Check out the MBA programs at William & Mary, the Full-Time, the Flex, the Online, and the Executive. Finally, we'd love to hear from you regarding the podcast. We invite you to share your ideas, questions, and thoughts with us by emailing us at podcast@wm.edu. Thanks to our guest Rajiv Kohli, and thanks to you for joining us. I'm Ken White, wishing you a safe, happy, and productive week.

More Podcast Episodes

 Dr. Kelly Crace
Dr. Kelly CraceEpisode 134: March 24, 2020
COVID-19 & Your Mental Health

Dr. Kelly Crace

Episode 134: March 24, 2020

COVID-19 & Your Mental Health

Everywhere you turn, you're hearing and reading more about coronavirus: Testing kits, the number of cases, quarantines, the effects to the economy and the stock market, universities and schools going online, people working from home. It's clearly the top-of-mind issue and new territory for everyone. Managing your thoughts and emotions during this unprecedented disruption will have a great effect on your attitude, outlook, and overall mental health. Dr. Kelly Crace is a licensed psychologist. He's Associate Vice President for Health and Wellness and Director of the Center for Mindfulness and Authentic Excellence at William & Mary. He joins us today to explain how you can not only manage but flourish in this time of change.

Podcast (audio)

Podcast (platforms)

iTunes | Stitcher | SoundCloud | TuneIn

Show Notes and Transcript
Show Notes
  • Why does change and uncertainty cause stress
  • What does it mean to flourish in times of uncertainty
  • How can one use fear to flourish
  • What is the difference between effective vs ineffective worry
  • Why rushing to feel calm can be counter-productive
  • How to create a sense of meaning during unprecedented times
  • The importance of checking in on oneself as well as others
  • How to keep from feeling that what's possible is what's probable
  • Why it's important to moderate methods of soothing
  • How to find proper methods of self-care
  • Why struggle can be a healthy challenge
  • What William & Mary is doing to address mental wellness
Transcript

Dr. Kelly Crace: COVID-19 & Your Mental Health TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD (PDF)

Ken White

From William & Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, this is Leadership & Business. The podcast that brings you the latest and best thinking from today's business leaders from across the world. We share the strategies, tactics, and information that can make you a more effective leader, communicator, and professional. I'm your host, Ken White. Thanks for listening. Well, everywhere you turn, you're hearing and reading more about coronavirus, testing kits, the number of cases, quarantines, the effects to the economy, and the stock market, universities, and schools going online, people working from home. It's clearly the top of mind issue and new territory for everyone. Well, managing your thoughts and emotions during this unprecedented disruption will have a great effect on your attitude, outlook, and overall mental health. Dr. Kelly Crace is a licensed psychologist. He's Associate Vice President for Health and Wellness and Director of the Center for Mindfulness and Authentic Excellence at William & Mary. He joins us today to explain how you can not only manage, but flourish in this time of change. Here's our conversation with Dr. Kelly Crace.

Ken White

Kelly, thank you very much for joining us. Greatly appreciate your time.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Thanks, Ken. It's always an honor and pleasure to be a part of the series, as well as to spend a little more time with you. So thank you.

Ken White

Well, you know, before we start talking about the topic, we have always done face to face interviews. We've never relied on technology. So you and I sort of face to face. We see each other on Zoom, but we're recording it this way. And I have a feeling we'll be doing several podcasts in the future this way until things that I get back to normal. But thank you very much. The unprecedented times. Right? And these are stressful times. Why do change and uncertainly, uncertainty like this cause us stress?

Dr. Kelly Crace

Yeah, it's you know, there's kind of different layers. There's kind of this universal human layer that's kind of a part of all of our minds, our brain. Then there's a personal level and kind of a cultural level. At all levels, our brain processes change as stressful because, with change, you're always leaving something. Something is now different that you are leaving, and by leaving it, it was known. So it's moving from something that was known into something different. And there's always uncertainty with where we're moving. So that our brain processes that as both loss and fear, the loss of what you're leaving, and the fear of what is uncertain ahead of you. And so that's stressful. It doesn't necessarily mean bad stress. Even the most positive changes are stressful at some level. But then if you add on to that an unwanted change or an unexpected change, we're kind of this universal chronic level of uncertainty such as this pandemic. It just heightens that sense of stress even more. And then you have the personal level. You know, some people kind of get excited by change. And some people really like for things to be the same. They don't want to change. So there's this personal level of how we react to it. And then there's a cultural level. We come from various cultures where we may come from a culture where change has always been threatening and has had awfulness attached to it. And then there are cultures where change has been a positive thing. So all of that matters in how we think of this particular uncertain time that's ahead of us.

Ken White

Interesting that you mentioned personal level. We've had a number of virtual town hall meetings with our students so over the past few days and how some are looking at this. Yeah, as really positive. This is exciting. Let's see. Let's see what happens. And others a little less tentative or a little more tentative, rather. Yeah, which is understandable. And your work, you say we can flourish through this unwanted uncertainty by considering the work of wellness and resilience. And you've spelled out some steps. Can we walk through those steps that students and working adults can focus on?

Dr. Kelly Crace

Absolutely. And remember kind of how we have always defined flourishing as we define flourishing as a consistent level, not a perfect level, but a consistent level of productivity and fulfillment and resilience. So you feel like you're doing good work. You find meaning in that work, and you find yourself to be resilient to the hardness of that work. So that's kind of really what we're focusing on when we think about flourishing.

Ken White

And through the change, we want to stay consistent as well.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Absolutely.

Ken White

Right.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Absolutely.

Ken White

So one of the things you had laid out, is you say, fear has its place. What do you mean by that?

Dr. Kelly Crace

Yeah, I think during these times, it's important to remember kind of the utility of fear and the function of fear. Fear is essentially a it can be a very healthy emotion because it's designed to protect us from hurt. It's a level of awareness that we have developed over evolution and over our lives of this sense that something bad or something hurtful could happen. Fear has its place here because there is a lot of uncertainty. This is new. This is unprecedented. This is a global issue that is causing all of us to kind of wonder and worry. And so I think worry has its place. It's not I don't think it's healthy for us to kind of try to convince ourselves to not be worried, because our wisdom is kind of poking at us saying well you do kind of have something to worry about. There's uncertainty here, and you could get hurt. You know that that possibility is there. So the difference is effective versus ineffective worry. Effective worry is being able to listen to your worry and fear and then act in a healthy way so it can be motivational. It can motivate me to take this seriously. It can motivate me to be informed. It can motivate me to learn. What does what is this new thing called social distancing and self-quarantine. It can help motivate me to be informed and to do things that are right and purposeful in my life. Ineffective worry is when you just start spinning. You know that you start spinning on all the what-ifs and all the uncertainties and all the worries, all the what-ifs that are out there. And without anything to do about it, that feels like we can fix it. So this is one of those pandemics that an individual themselves can feel helpless in. So they can spin with that worry. They can get overwhelmed by it. They can go through this. They can go through kind of compulsive rituals to try to calm themselves down, or they can go to the opposite end and just kind of move into this need for it to not be real, not be serious. That I just need this to not be so serious as everyone's making it out to be. So then they just ignore it and move into kind of reckless behavior and hang out with everybody and just pretend it's not even there. Those are typically the unhealthy kind of ineffective worry cause it leads us to actually be more anxious and more overwhelmed.

Ken White

The trap of chasing calm or happiness.

Dr. Kelly Crace

So ineffective worry when we do get overwhelmed. And we are feeling or if we're just normally feeling upset. People go through different ranges of feelings around this, from worry to anger, you know, looking and see how things that they feel may be done right. And things that may they feel like they're not being done right and it's upsetting them. That type of thing. It can be this aspect of this kind of worry that is both about mourning and anxiety that I can be actually mourning what I'm seeing around me. I'm feeling a sense of loss. I'm feeling a sense of loss of what I expected. Think of our students and our faculty and staff that and the parents that their lives have kind of completely changed here. And that can cause us to kind of chase calmness. We kind of rush to calm. We rush to feel better. That typically doesn't work because what it does is it causes us to be so over sensitized to how we're emotionally feeling in the moment that we kind of start defining our day by that. So how was today? Today was a good day. I was calm. Today was a bad day. I was really anxious. We're constantly checking in on our emotions. And a lot of times when we're feeling upset, we not only want to go to calm. We want to kind of go to the other complete and try to find happiness. So we try to chase anything that will make us not only feel calm but to make us feel really good and make us feel really happy. Instead of kind of chasing calm and happy. We really kind of want to move toward instead of calm, move toward self-care instead of happy, move toward kind of purposeful, meaningful things. It's okay to go through enjoyment. It's okay to look for enjoyable things, but not necessarily for the purpose of feeling good. It's more for the purpose of enjoyment is healthy. So it's good to have some enjoyment in your life, but especially important to have a sense of purpose and meaning in your life where you feel like you're acting on things that are right.

Ken White

Become values focused amidst uncertainty.

Dr. Kelly Crace

So one of the best ways to find a sense of personal agency, a sense of personal control when when we're surrounded by a lot of uncertainty and a lot of helplessness of, you know, how do I fix this or how do I change this thing that's worrying me. Is it a lot of times if we can if we overfocus on trying to reduce something, I'm trying to reduce being overwhelmed or reduce being worried, that doesn't work too well, because we tend to kind of be more preoccupied the more we try to reduce something.

Ken White

Yeah.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Instead, if we can try to increase something positive and focus on that, that's more helpful. And one of the most positive things to get at is one of your purest forms of motivation, and that is that your values. And so if we can kind of start every day looking for a sense of purpose and meaning by asking ourselves what matters most today, you can start off with kind of generally what matters. But of those things that matter. These things that matter to me, what matters most, and then what matters second-most. So you want to kind of clarify what matters to me today but then prioritize to. What's most important to me today. If you can engage in those things of value, what you're doing is you're creating purpose in your life. If at the end of the day, you can also take a moment and appreciate where you acted on that, that creates meaning. A lot of people kind of equate purpose and meaning. Purpose is a little more. They're very similar. The purpose is kind of a motivational type thing, a direction of your energy. Meaning is kind of reflective part of reflecting and letting that paint dry instead of skimming over it and just saying going on to the next thing. It's really important during this time of worry that you stop and say take a moment and reflect and appreciate where you acted on things of purpose today. That's what creates a sense of meaning.

Ken White

Understand your personal experience and change and loss. What do you mean by that?

Dr. Kelly Crace

Yeah, I think it's important during these times to really reflect on the personal sense that this has on you. We can reasonably infer that everyone has been affected by this change. Everyone is adjusting at some level, but we just don't know what this change means to everyone. For some, it's exciting. For some, it can be very threatening. For some, it's changing kind of completely their thought of what, like, for instance, for students, what the second half of this semester was going to be like, especially for our graduates, our undergraduate and graduate students. This looks completely different. So it's important to really understand your sense of what this means to me. How is this impacting me? What do I think about it? What I feel about it. And the important thing about that is don't judge what you're learning in your reflection. As I think about what this is. It's important to honor what I'm understanding rather than immediately judging it as a good feeling or a bad thought. It's allowing it to be okay that whatever I'm experiencing, this is normal and appropriate. And then you kind of want to think about how do I want to talk about that with other people? Most people are not completely alone. They're in the house with someone else right now and often with a lot of people. You've mentioned how your whole family is kind of coming together from all of their areas.

Ken White

Right.

Dr. Kelly Crace

And so it's about being able to. How do we share this with each other? How do we seek to understand each other's personal experiences? Then assume them instead. Because I'm feeling this way. I just assume everyone is feeling this way. It's important to ask and not assume and kind of how is this impacting you? And it's also it's important to be sensitive to impact. I may want to kind of talk about this a lot, but I may recognize someone in my house may not want to talk about it so much. So it's being sensitive to impact as well, to kind of think about how and how this experience is affecting me.

Ken White

Wow, that's such a great point. You're right. I know I find it fascinating to talk about it and to think about the future where we're going. Not thinking maybe somebody around me it's the last thing they want to hear.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Yeah.

Ken White

Yeah, that's an interesting point. Possibility versus probability. I find this real interesting.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Yeah, that's a real important thing in terms of how we manage worry and also what can lead to effective worry versus ineffective worry. Fear causes the possible to feel probable. So when we're in a fear state, when we're worried and afraid, we think of a lot of what-ifs, and all of those what-ifs probably are possible. But when we're leading with fear, those possible things start to feel probable. Well, the interesting thing is we brace ourselves. Our mind is very protective. And so anything that is probable and negative, we immediately feel compelled to act on that in some level. So if if you're not afraid right now that there's a poisonous snake underneath your chair because you kind of know your surroundings around you. Is it possible? Yes, but it's not probable. But let's say things change somehow and you're in your environment there where it became probable

Ken White

Right.

Dr. Kelly Crace

you wouldn't just be sitting here talking to me right now. You would be acting in some way. You'll be doing something that would be protective. Well, the same thing exists with this. We can what if our ourselves to a place where possible starts to feel probable, and you want to use your analytical mind as well as the help around you, support around you to really discern what's possible versus what's probable? Individuals may be thinking, is it possible that I could really, really something really bad could happen to me if I get sick, you know? Is that possible? Yes.

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Dr. Kelly Crace

But if I think about, okay, well, what am I doing to take care of myself and what am I doing to be healthy, and what am I doing to self corner? Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No. And so the point is you can always want to land on probable. It's okay for the reaction to be all of it, you know. But you want to go through a period of discernment to where you land on probable and you kind of commit your behavior to the problem. Even if I may feel still worried,

Ken White

Hmm-mmm.

Dr. Kelly Crace

I'm going to commit my behavior to the probable.

Ken White

That's great. Yeah. And I can see many people going the wrong path there. That's great.

Ken White

We'll continue our discussion with Dr. Kelly Crace, Associate Vice President for Health and Wellness at William & Mary, in just a minute. Our podcast is brought to you by the Center for Corporate Education at William & Mary's School of Business. The best businesses and organizations in the world invest in educating and retaining top employees. And many of those businesses call on William & Mary's Center for Corporate Education to create and deliver customized executive education programs. The programs are designed and taught by William & Mary's top-ranked MBA faculty. If your organization wants to educate and retain its top people, contact the Center for Corporate Education, or visit our website at wmleadership.com. Now back to our conversation with Dr. Kelly Crace.

Ken White

Stay informed, not stuck.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Yeah, and worry can cause us to really seek a lot of information and where we seek information to try to find a sense of calm, to find a sense of agency or control. It is so easy today with so many of the competitive news channels and the noted competitive news sources. It's important to remember that it's also their motivation to make sure that you stay on their channel, that you stay with them. So they need to compel you. They need to captivate you. So evocative news can often, often be a part of what we're experiencing. And all that does that escalates our worry it escalates the what-ifs. At the same time, you want to be informed. You want to feel like, you know, I'm still learning about this, and learning and growing from this is important. But you want to do it in ways that you feel are healthy for you. So be sensitive to the impact information is having on you and figure out your, like for me, I've learned, you know, I. For me personally, I just. I go to NPR once a day and get and get my updates that take about 10 minutes. And that's about as much as I really want to help me feel informed. But if I do it twice a day, it just feels like too much. I start thinking about it more. I start worrying about it more. Find out what your exposure time kind of your SPF factors. We do that with suntan lotion, with SPF factor. Find out what your exposure you need to news and information that helps you and try to find sources that can give it to you. In brief, brief bites without a lot of evocative emotion to it, let it be factual so you can learn without being stirred

Ken White

Yeah, that's great. And I think social media can really take you down, too. If you're on something like Twitter and a negative thread can just take off and take you right with it. That's great advice. Yeah.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Oh, completely agree. And there's also that added feeling of the anonymity in social media

Ken White

Yes.

Dr. Kelly Crace

where people can post things that are very evocative without recourse or without consequence. So that's a really good point.

Ken White

Soothing versus self-care.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Yeah, it kind of relates to what we had talked about earlier in terms of chasing calm, you know, and soothing, soothing, and self-care in terms of the actual behavior. It can look like the same. The key between these two is all the intention. It's about the intention. So with soothing, the intention is to feel better. That's my sole motivation is to feel better. In other words, I feel bad. I want to feel better. The quickest way to do that is to change brain chemistry. And so I will be then if I'm motivated to feel better, I will be motivated to try to change my brain chemistry as quickly as possible. But there are five things that change brain chemistry the quickest, and that's food, drugs, pain, sex, and compelling entertainment. Those are the things that change brain chemistry. And none of those five things are bad in and of themselves. The problem is when the intention is to soothe, we don't moderate those things well, and that's when it can then move to unhealthy kind of behavior. As opposed to self-care, when the motivation is to to to take care of yourself. The intention is to be healthy. And so when the intention is to be healthy, we can pick things that may make us feel better. It's okay. That's kind of a bonus if it does, doesn't have to, but the intention is to be healthy. So examples of healthy self-care are verbal, you know, converting your emotional energy to talking to someone that is safe and trustworthy, that can be verbal expression, that can be to friends or family or a professional, whatever. Converting your emotional energy to physical expression through exercise, through yoga, through breathing, active breathing, progressive relaxation, meditative expressions, and other forms, self-care. And that's where you're converting your emotional energy to some form of meditative expression, be it meditation, mindfulness, prayer. Any of those things that are congruent with your values. And then creative expression is a great form of self self-care where converting your energies to some kind of writing or creative expression. I've been so inspired by some of the things I've heard from families that are being very creative with this time of let's do something new, let's do something different. I know you're planning on doing that with your family, and I've heard so many stories about that. It's a really healthy form of self-care. The last two to think about are sometimes just very simply taking a break from it, sometimes taking a temporary break. And that's when you just get away from it, and you realize you're not denying it. You're not putting a lid on it, but you're putting it on the shelf and saying, I just need a break from that. That's when you go and watch a movie, or you go talk with your friends, but don't talk about it. That distraction can be a even distracting into our work, can be healthy. And then the last thing is, is kind of reminding yourself of what else is true. When we're upset, we can get very myopic in how we're seeing ourselves and seeing this problem. We need to periodically ask what else is true about my life? What else is true about me? What else is true beyond just this pandemic? It's just healthy.

Ken White

Yeah, absolutely. And finally, courage training.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Yeah, with courage training. Really, what it's about is recognizing that all these steps that we talk about are hard. It's just hard to do. And it's about kind of changing how we think about hard and how we think about struggle. So many of the things I've heard from colleagues and from students that we're working with during this transition and from peers is they'll say so-and-so is really struggling or I'm really struggling, or we're all struggling with this transition. That type of thing. Struggle is not bad. Struggle in and of itself is not bad. Struggle is a struggle can be a healthy challenge. There's a difference between struggle and strain. There's a difference between challenge and strain. Challenge is good challenge is growth producing. We can step into this new area of pedagogy and feel completely inept in it, but we can struggle through developing a sense of agency. You know, one step at a time. And the wonderful thing about this kind of pedagogy is we don't have to be perfect with it. We can be clumsy with it. We can make mistakes with it, and it's okay. Like you said, we can have children screaming in the background or my five dogs that are right in the same room as me right now.

Ken White

Absolutely.

Dr. Kelly Crace

But those things can happen. It brings the human element of it. The main thing about us recognizing is one you want to honor that this work is hard. It's, and it's only hard. That's the key, is that we don't place a lot of emotional value on hard. You don't lament it. You just accept it for what it is. We accept struggle. We accept hard. And that's actually what courage is. Courage is stepping into right things that are hard. It's stepping into this hardness. That's right to do. It's right for us to be healthy. It's right for us to do pedagogy in this way now. This is right for us. In this rightness, when it's hard, that's actually being courageous. Dr. King, one of my favorite quotes from Dr. King, is heroism is the courage to act every day according to your values. That's heroic. And I think we can find a lot of support with each other by stepping into that courage together. So it's like let's be courageous together. Let's step into this hard together and see it only as hard.

Ken White

Well, and speaking of support, you and your team, the website is absolutely fantastic for the wellness center. And much of what we just talked about is available on there. And you've done a number of things. Because it's interesting in our town hall meetings, we've had with our students in almost every one. They're asking about mental health support. You know, what do we have? And it's fantastic that we can say, boy, you check out what William & Mary is doing, some phenomenal stuff. Can you kind of give us an idea of what's available on the website? And there's a lot of things going on that ordinarily you might think would have been suspended because we're not meeting face to face, but that's not the case.

Dr. Kelly Crace

Exactly. One of the things that we first lamented and mourned was we've just gotten so much traction with our health and wellness, our programs, our resources, the new integrative wellness center. And the way, you know, over 80 percent of our things, 85 percent of our students access the rec center, the campus rec programs, and so campus recreation and the wellness center. We're just so happy with the work that's being done without students or engaging in these things and really, really grieved the aspect that this wasn't going to be available to them. So our staff immediately starting thinking. Lets create a virtual wellness center. Let's create a health and wellness center that brings the best of campus recreation, the best of the four departments of Integrative Wellness with the counseling ce